Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:48 pm

I'm sure there is plenty of good advice.

Start where you are and be mindful of that state, observing.

In a field close to the sea and gazing at the sky - or taking a dump.

In Vajrayana take a dump as Vajrayogini, in Dzogchen just be present and aware.

if you follow both, then be present and aware whilst Vajrayogini takes a dump! LOL :)
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Dronma » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:58 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:I don't know how someone could be so self-conscious of having to take a shit.


I am not sure if I understand correctly what you are saying, since I am not Anglophone, but I'll risk an answer:
That's why exist the skillful means of Vajrayana Buddhism, including Dzogchen.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Josef » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:34 pm

Sherlock wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:I think if people are suffering from this "illusion" I would want to treat and possibly cure it.


In the Dzogchen context, there is nothing to cure; if you truly realize that it is an illusion, you are liberated. The way to realize this (in the Dzogchen teachings) is to receive the transmission, recognise your real nature, remove your doubts about it, and then continue in that state of recognition.

At least as far as I understand.


Well said Sherlock.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:56 pm

Sally Gross wrote:Seriously, using the lavatory or awareness of the urgent need to do so provides excellent opportunities for mindfulness and instant presence. Don't belittle it. So do all manner of everyday things like washing one's hands, brushing one's teeth, and even stroking one's cat. Be mindfully present 24/7, especially if it involves being in instant presence, and .... The humble business of needing to empty your kishkes should not be time out from mindfulness or instant presence.


That's cool. I think I will soon start on uprooting the last 2 addictions ~ nicotine and caffeine.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby uan » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:21 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
uan wrote:stop thinking about "universal suffering from the "magical illusion" we think of as reality?" What does that even mean? Those words don't mean anything. Even in a non-buddhist sense they are so so incredibly vague as to mean whatever anyone wants them to mean, so essentially they mean nothing.


"Origination, endurance and destruction as well
Are said to be just like
A dream, a magical illusion,
And a city of ethereal spirits."
- Nāgārjuna


Some obviously thought about it quite a bit.


undoubtably. The difference is Nagarjuna was trying to articulate an understanding he had. The OP was typing words that sound all buddhisty, but are empty of any understanding whatsoever.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:38 am

Wesley1982 wrote:I don't know how someone could be so self-conscious of having to take a shit.

:lol:
It is a moment like any other. If you try to be mindful of your actions, why stopping when you enter the toilet?
But it is important that you try to meet a teacher who explains all this properly to you. Then do some reading, if possible and try to clarify at least those initial doubts.
It's rather hard to get it from a few posts over the internet. I understand you are quite new to Buddhism and Dzogchen, so it would really be important if you could learn properly. Otherwise you risk becoming very confused. Do you have possibilities to buy a few books and see a teacher? I know you already attended a webcast by ChNN, but you didn't understand most of it partially due to your hearing problem. Perhaps you could ask a doctor what to do to improve your hearing on those occasions? It was already recommended to you, but I'll do it again. Reading "The Crystal and the Way of Light" would do wonders for your understanding, not only about Dzogchen but a bit about Buddhism overall. It's not a difficult book and you can buy it on amazon, for instance. You don't need to be a DC member to buy that and several other introductory books. If you can't really afford it, I'll lend you mine, but I believe you live in the US so I'll have to send it overseas. So we got that covered. But if I were you, I would really buy and exemplar to keep if I could afford it. I'm confident you'll find it very helpful.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:27 am

I initially purchased a few books on Buddhism but not specifically Dzogchen. I don't have anymore room for pricey books.

Can afford to buy books but its about my ability to drive back and forth to Dallas,TX for sitting class. (which I don't have yet)
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:07 am

Sally Gross wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Maybe "others" do not even exist...... :juggling:


Oh heavens ... a Cartesian turn ... Descartes' evil demon who persuades the unwary into solipsism ... :twisted:

Rene Descartes wrote:I will suppose, then, not that Deity, who is sovereignly good and the fountain of truth, but that some malignant demon, who is at once exceedingly potent and deceitful, has employed all his artifice to deceive me; t will suppose that the sky, the air, the earth, colors, figures, sounds, and all external things, are nothing better than the illusions of dreams, by means of which this being has laid snares for my credulity; I will consider myself as without hands, eyes, flesh, blood, or any of the senses, and as falsely believing that I am possessed of these; I will continue resolutely fixed in this belief, and if indeed by this means it be not in my power to arrive at the knowledge of truth, I shall at least do what is in my power, viz., [ suspend my judgment ], and guard with settled purpose against giving my assent to what is false, and being imposed upon by this deceiver, whatever be his power and artifice.

Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy, Meditation 1, paragraph 12.


It is actually a good exercise to think through this. Whether it is a meditation in the Dharmic sense is another question; but ChNNR does advise us to integrate, and if one has studied Western philosophy, that too can surely be integrated.


You're right, only the unwary are persuaded into solipsism, but the emptiness of others doesn't necessarily imply a solipsistic view. Dronma is right in suggesting that self-liberation would naturally be complemented by the liberation of other. Solipsism would require a mind (or consciousness) to act as a substratum or container, the accurate view of emptiness and clarity (in union) is a safeguard against erroneous notions of a substratum and therefore negates a solipsistic view.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:53 am

Wesley1982 wrote:I don't know how someone could be so self-conscious of having to take a shit.


My mentor actually went out of his way to teach me(and my friend) that sitting on the toilet is the perfect time to practice. He said "what else are you doing? Shitting? Sound some A's do some guru yoga and dedicate the merit before you get up". There was another time when some poor kid asked him for an interview and he told the kid that he'd only do the interview during his morning shit. So the next morning the kid showed up bright and early and my mentor made the kid buy him coffee, and then they both just sat there. The kid tried to start the interview but my mentor refused and made the kid wait til nature called. When it was time they both made their way to the bathroom and kid filmed the interview while my mentor sat on the toilet, to this day he's still searching for the kid so he can get a copy of the interview.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:08 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:I don't know how someone could be so self-conscious of having to take a shit.


My mentor actually went out of his way to teach me(and my friend) that sitting on the toilet is the perfect time to practice. He said "what else are you doing? Shitting? Sound some A's do some guru yoga and dedicate the merit before you get up". There was another time when some poor kid asked him for an interview and he told the kid that he'd only do the interview during his morning shit. So the next morning the kid showed up bright and early and my mentor made the kid buy him coffee, and then they both just sat there. The kid tried to start the interview but my mentor refused and made the kid wait til nature called. When it was time they both made their way to the bathroom and kid filmed the interview while my mentor sat on the toilet, to this day he's still searching for the kid so he can get a copy of the interview.


:smile:
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Dronma » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:55 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:You're right, only the unwary are persuaded into solipsism, but the emptiness of others doesn't necessarily imply a solipsistic view. Dronma is right in suggesting that self-liberation would naturally be complemented by the liberation of other. Solipsism would require a mind (or consciousness) to act as a substratum or container, the accurate view of emptiness and clarity (in union) is a safeguard against erroneous notions of a substratum and therefore negates a solipsistic view.


:twothumbsup:
In the Machig Labdrön's teaching about Chöd, the 4th demon of illusion is EGO:

"The fourth demon, the demon of arrogance or inflation refers to ego fixation, our deeply rooted belief that we are a self, independent and autonomous. This moment of grasping, when we say I, me or mine, is the beginning of the illusion of duality and gives birth to attachment and aversion. It is considered the root of the three other demons, since ego-fixation is the root of all suffering and the cause of cyclic existence. Machig is said to have explained it this way:

As long as there is an ego, there are demons.
When there is no more ego, there are no more demons either!
If there is no ego, there is no more object to cut through,
Nor is there any more fear or terror.
Free from all extremes, co-emergent wisdom
Gives birth to the understanding of [the nature of] all phenomena.
This is referred to as the fruit of liberation from the four demons."
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:46 am

Is dzogchen a tradition or a teaching? . .How does it relate to the dharma? thanks.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 am

uan wrote:undoubtably. The difference is Nagarjuna was trying to articulate an understanding he had. The OP was typing words that sound all buddhisty, but are empty of any understanding whatsoever.


Right, well more than dozen Dallas/Ft. Worth pastors would probably tell you that this idea or concept called "God" will fill that emptiness.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:04 am

Wesley1982 wrote:Right, well more than dozen Dallas/Ft. Worth pastors would probably tell you that this idea or concept called "God" will fill that emptiness.


And they would be offering a temporary solution, tantamount to doping someone with an opiate. Again, emptiness in buddhism is a different emptiness, but the empty void that those pastors would be addressing (the emptiness inside oneself that humanity scrambles to fill in any way possible), cannot be filled by god or anything else. That void is the result of identifying with an abstraction. The abstraction (individual) feels inherently incomplete and seeks wholeness through various means, because the individual is itself a concept (completely illusory). How can you complete or fill a concept? You can't touch, throw, roll, bounce a concept. God, being a concept itself, cannot fill or complete another concept. Anything "external" that one grasps to fill the void, will always fail to fill the void, experiences, religion, drugs, alcohol, sex, relationships etc... all are temporary fixes (some better than others). They are a) transient and b) an abstraction predicated on another abstraction. Dharma practiced correctly will nullify the void by revealing the unreality of the void.

Apologies for being preachy :soapbox: but those pastors (though they mean well and I commend their efforts) unwittingly deceive others. Glad you see that "god" is an idea or concept, it surely is.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby uan » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:29 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:
uan wrote:undoubtably. The difference is Nagarjuna was trying to articulate an understanding he had. The OP was typing words that sound all buddhisty, but are empty of any understanding whatsoever.


Right, well more than dozen Dallas/Ft. Worth pastors would probably tell you that this idea or concept called "God" will fill that emptiness.


The term and meaning of "empty" in my response is different from the term and meaning of "emptiness" that those pastors in Dallas are trying to fill. And that emptiness is not the same as "emptiness" as talked about in Buddhism.

This is why I suggested not worrying about abstract terms and focus on your own conditions of where you are at. :namaste:
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Sally Gross » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:05 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:Is dzogchen a tradition or a teaching? . .How does it relate to the dharma? thanks.


A tradition is something which is transmitted, from teachers to disciples some of whom become teachers in turn and transmit it onwards through the generations. In that sense, Dzogchen is a tradition or, perhaps more accurately, a set of cognate traditions. ChNNR has done work on the Zhang Zhung Dzogchen tradition, which predates the establishment of Buddhism in Tibet, and which is a distinctive strand of the broader Dzogchen tradition or set of traditions. Traditions consist of teachings, in that they are taught to others -- this is how they are transmitted and how their integrity is preserved. Certain teachings have been written down, but there are also important teachings -- important facets of Dzogchen tradition -- which are oral and have not been committed to paper or to print. As to relationship to the Dharma, I believe that Dzogchen is a realisation of the Dharma, and that Dzogchen is therefore Dharma. There are other vessels of Dharma which are not Dzogchen: different routes, some faster than others, for reaching the same ultimate destination as it were. The method taught in the tradition or traditions of Dzogchen is not a gradual route, in contrast to most other routes.

I trust that older and wiser Vajra-siblings will correct any mistakes I might have made in this, and hope that it is helpful.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:31 pm

I probably just made some progress.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:42 pm

By the way, I have access to tree trimming & cutting equipment. I don't know how you would trim & cut palm,coconut, or malaysian trees.

What I do is cut the branches so they grow back out and get real lush.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:30 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:By the way, I have access to tree trimming & cutting equipment. I don't know how you would trim & cut palm,coconut, or malaysian trees.

What I do is cut the branches so they grow back out and get real lush.


Is that a reference to that tree metaphor I posted last week? Are you speaking metaphorically? If you're not I'm thoroughly confused! If you're being literal I don't know what that has to do with the topic, but that is cool you have gardening and tree landscaping type skills, I can mow a lawn but that's about it.
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Re: Explanation of the Dzogchen symbol ~ What does it mean?

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:42 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:By the way, I have access to tree trimming & cutting equipment. I don't know how you would trim & cut palm,coconut, or malaysian trees.

What I do is cut the branches so they grow back out and get real lush.


Is that a reference to that tree metaphor I posted last week? Are you speaking metaphorically? If you're not I'm thoroughly confused! If you're being literal I don't know what that has to do with the topic, but that is cool you have gardening and tree landscaping type skills, I can mow a lawn but that's about it.


It would be alot like trimming a tree for a Buddha to meditate underneath in the shade. (the sun comes out and it gets hot)
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