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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:48 am 
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Horizontal aspect of DO manifests as causal chain and when examine, points to impermanence of all phenomena.
Vertical aspect of DO when examine, points to sunyata.

In Dzogpa Chenpo, lhundrup is more fundamental than DO. Because of lhundrup, there is DO.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:10 am 
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Sherab wrote:
Horizontal aspect of DO manifests as causal chain and when examine, points to impermanence of all phenomena.
Vertical aspect of DO when examine, points to sunyata.

In Dzogpa Chenpo, lhundrup is more fundamental than DO. Because of lhundrup, there is DO.

What do you think?


I recall the other discussion on dependent origination where these concepts of horizontal and vertical D.O. came up. Did you come up with this distinction? Upon re-reading that other conversation after the fact it seems I misunderstood the distinction between these notions. What aspects of dependent origination do "horizontal" and "vertical" represent? Can you please thoroughly explain these distinctions if they are going to be such a fundamental piece of this thread? Thanks :smile:

Is Horizontal D.O. essentially something like Candrakīrti's sevenfold reasoning with the chariot?

Aren't both essentially pointing at śūnyatā?


Last edited by asunthatneversets on Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:31 am 
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In What is the Concept of "Reality" in Buddhism?, Malcolm wrote:
"The eight examples of illusion show that the dependently arisen is merely illusory and not real."

"This approach to the two truths is called the upadesha transmission of Madhyamaka. It is much superior to the Madhyamaka of analysis [...]"


See also pages 343-344 and page 409 of the Sutra section of Jigme Lingpa's Treasury of Precious Qualities by the Padmakara Translation Group.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:44 pm 
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I was hoping that the topic would have attract more opinions.

Anyway, for those who may be interested to know, when I asked my teacher whether in Dzogchen, lhundrup is more fundamental than DO, his answer was yes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Sherab wrote:
Horizontal aspect of DO manifests as causal chain and when examine, points to impermanence of all phenomena.
Vertical aspect of DO when examine, points to sunyata.

In Dzogpa Chenpo, lhundrup is more fundamental than DO. Because of lhundrup, there is DO.

What do you think?



I think that not recognizing lhun grub results in dependent origination.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
I think that not recognizing lhun grub results in dependent origination.

I am not sure about this. I always thought that there are pure DOs, i.e., DOs not tainted with non-recognition, and impure DOs, ie. DOs tainted with non-recognition. An example of pure DO would be the generation of Deities and mandalas within the state of recognition.


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