Dzogchen and ngöndro

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:50 am

Yudron wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Perhaps. But has it occurred to you that these debates may actually be informative for someone who's making a choice?
If someone is interested in Dzogchen practice and faces the dilemma of considering or not tantric ngöndro mandatory, approaching Dzogchen via the nine yanas system or not, then these discussions may be informative. There's no consensus, there's debate and not always people agree. As in life there's no consensus about many options we have to make. Maybe they don't understand the fine points, but the main point is that there are two options on the table. And people have the right to know this.


I would suggest new people seek out a true Dzogchen master with a genuine lineage, see if there is a good connection there, learn to trust him or her, then follow his/her instruction. Contrast this with the approach of making a decision first about what one thinks one should do, then looking for a teacher that sees things the same way.

Well, but what is a true Dzogchen teacher? We can't know that until he introduces us to our real nature, can we?
I had Dzogchen teachers prior to ChNN. Good, kind teachers to whom I owe a lot.
Yet, had I known of ChNN before and his way of presenting Dzogchen and I would have gone to him 15 years ago.
So knowing that there are different options is always helpful. This doesn't mean - and I think it would be a rather silly thing to assume - that one will make the choice based solely on an internet discussion. How dumb do you think people are, Yudron? Give'em some credit, for goodness sake! :lol:
I'm sure they will visit several teachers and then decide what's best for them. But by being aware of these different presentations, it's more likely that they check them both and not only visit people who teach in similar ways. What's the harm?
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:47 am

dechen norbu-la...

all of these threads interweave-- it's hard to know where to put something. i'm not particularly interested in debating whether or not one should practice ngondro. why? i think both answers to that question are valid. that's a practice oriented question that's local (personal) and pragmatic. i don't have an opinion except for myself and there's no point talking about that.

what interests me a bit more is how does one talk about something that can't be talked about and that is utterly non-conceptual without creating a mess of it? there's this thing dzogchen that is a philosophical view that mipham and longchenpa eloquently expounded. there's this thing dzogchen that is the yogic practice of this said view that is entirely private and inexpressible and must be learned at the feet of a master. there's this thing dzogchen that's part of a larger doxgraphical project called the nine yanas. and there's this dzogchen that's the ueber-completion stage beyond the completion stage in a tantric approach. and there's thing thing dzogchen that really describes our true nature. and there's this thing dzogchen that represents the fruit of practice. and there's dzogchen that represents something of a culture or style of practice. in the same vein there's even dzogchen that's almost synonymous with the DC of CNNR. there's also the dzogchen that is a caricature by it's critics and hacks and frauds that claim to be its masters.

that's a lot of categories to mix.

if somebody knowledgeable like malcolm-la saying something and people freaking out and those knowledgeable people shutting the f#@k up-- cycles of that-- blows people's hair back, well, go for it. i got the sense this was getting old after 10 years and three forums. maybe not. i have no hair. my hair can't get blown back by anything... so i don't know.

-xy

Dechen Norbu wrote:Perhaps. But has it occurred to you that these debates may actually be informative for someone who's making a choice?
If someone is interested in Dzogchen practice and faces the dilemma of considering or not tantric ngöndro mandatory, approaching Dzogchen via the nine yanas system or not, then these discussions may be informative. There's no consensus, there's debate and not always people agree. As in life there's no consensus about many options we have to make. Maybe they don't understand the fine points, but the main point is that there are two options on the table. And people have the right to know this.
User avatar
xylem
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:53 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:59 am

yudron-la...

:heart: :heart: :heart: :D :heart: :heart: :heart:

thank you.

-xy

Yudron wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Perhaps. But has it occurred to you that these debates may actually be informative for someone who's making a choice?
If someone is interested in Dzogchen practice and faces the dilemma of considering or not tantric ngöndro mandatory, approaching Dzogchen via the nine yanas system or not, then these discussions may be informative. There's no consensus, there's debate and not always people agree. As in life there's no consensus about many options we have to make. Maybe they don't understand the fine points, but the main point is that there are two options on the table. And people have the right to know this.


I would suggest new people seek out a true Dzogchen master with a genuine lineage, see if there is a good connection there, learn to trust him or her, then follow his/her instruction. Contrast this with the approach of making a decision first about what one thinks one should do, then looking for a teacher that sees things the same way.
User avatar
xylem
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:53 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:24 am

xylem wrote:dechen norbu-la...

all of these threads interweave-- it's hard to know where to put something. i'm not particularly interested in debating whether or not one should practice ngondro. why? i think both answers to that question are valid. that's a practice oriented question that's local (personal) and pragmatic. i don't have an opinion except for myself and there's no point talking about that.

what interests me a bit more is how does one talk about something that can't be talked about and that is utterly non-conceptual without creating a mess of it? there's this thing dzogchen that is a philosophical view that mipham and longchenpa eloquently expounded. there's this thing dzogchen that is the yogic practice of this said view that is entirely private and inexpressible and must be learned at the feet of a master. there's this thing dzogchen that's part of a larger doxgraphical project called the nine yanas. and there's this dzogchen that's the ueber-completion stage beyond the completion stage in a tantric approach. and there's thing thing dzogchen that really describes our true nature. and there's this thing dzogchen that represents the fruit of practice. and there's dzogchen that represents something of a culture or style of practice. in the same vein there's even dzogchen that's almost synonymous with the DC of CNNR. there's also the dzogchen that is a caricature by it's critics and hacks and frauds that claim to be its masters.

that's a lot of categories to mix.

if somebody knowledgeable like malcolm-la saying something and people freaking out and those knowledgeable people shutting the f#@k up-- cycles of that-- blows people's hair back, well, go for it. i got the sense this was getting old after 10 years and three forums. maybe not. i have no hair. my hair can't get blown back by anything... so i don't know.

-xy


Hahaha. Perfectly said Yudron. Inspiration for me to shut up!

:smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby muni » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:21 am

I said to my master to want to know as much as possible to can better help others. But he was pointing to such as dream-samsara and there was only one thing to know; OWN MIND.

Newcomers...bringing doubt regarding Dzogchen, Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, disrespecting fellows their "not named masters", spreading more suspiciousness a fishmarket ever sold.


Oops off topic.
muni
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:21 pm

xylem wrote:dechen norbu-la...

all of these threads interweave-- it's hard to know where to put something. i'm not particularly interested in debating whether or not one should practice ngondro. why? i think both answers to that question are valid. that's a practice oriented question that's local (personal) and pragmatic. i don't have an opinion except for myself and there's no point talking about that.

All right. This topic is for talking about that, so if that is not the subject perhaps you should post in other topic or create a new one.

what interests me a bit more is how does one talk about something that can't be talked about and that is utterly non-conceptual without creating a mess of it?

That's a big question, right? Especially because it's not a question about Dzogchen particularly, but Buddhadharma in general. It's always good to keep in mind that the finger points to the moon and should not be confused with the moon itself. Like Buddhadharma and Sadharma are not the same, Dzogchen teachings and the state of Dzogchen are not the same. However, it's good that there are teachings, otherwise it would be very hard for most of us to practice. Dzogchen rests specifically about a very particular experience, and that's the recognition of the primordial state. This is the starting point and without it, that implies direct transmission, there's no chance of Dzogchen practice. OTOH, in a nutshell, Buddhadharma can be practiced for a very long time without any particular experience other than our perception that it makes sense and we can relate with the teachings.

there's this thing dzogchen that is a philosophical view that mipham and longchenpa eloquently expounded. there's this thing dzogchen that is the yogic practice of this said view that is entirely private and inexpressible and must be learned at the feet of a master.

I don't agree with that. Like I don't agree with the finger being the moon. Any explanation about Dzogchen is conceptual, so it's not Dzogchen. Even the Dzogchen learned "at the feet of the master" is only Dzogchen if you are introduced to your real nature. Until that point, one is not yet practicing Dzogchen, but at most trying to do so.

there's this thing dzogchen that's part of a larger doxgraphical project called the nine yanas. and there's this dzogchen that's the ueber-completion stage beyond the completion stage in a tantric approach. and there's thing thing dzogchen that really describes our true nature. and there's this thing dzogchen that represents the fruit of practice. and there's dzogchen that represents something of a culture or style of practice. in the same vein there's even dzogchen that's almost synonymous with the DC of CNNR. there's also the dzogchen that is a caricature by it's critics and hacks and frauds that claim to be its masters.

Yes, I see what you mean, but in fact none of what you said is Dzogchen per se, but ideas about Dzogchen. But I think I get your point.

that's a lot of categories to mix.

Or to get rid of, if you ask me.

if somebody knowledgeable like malcolm-la saying something and people freaking out and those knowledgeable people shutting the f#@k up-- cycles of that-- blows people's hair back, well, go for it. i got the sense this was getting old after 10 years and three forums. maybe not. i have no hair. my hair can't get blown back by anything... so i don't know.

-xy

All in all, I still hope you find some benefit of these discussions, not mattering all the stages they go through. It takes two to dance the tango, as they say. A problem is only a problem when we let it become such in our mind. :smile:
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:42 pm

xylem wrote:yudron-la...

:heart: :heart: :heart: :D :heart: :heart: :heart:

thank you.

-xy

Yudron wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Perhaps. But has it occurred to you that these debates may actually be informative for someone who's making a choice?
If someone is interested in Dzogchen practice and faces the dilemma of considering or not tantric ngöndro mandatory, approaching Dzogchen via the nine yanas system or not, then these discussions may be informative. There's no consensus, there's debate and not always people agree. As in life there's no consensus about many options we have to make. Maybe they don't understand the fine points, but the main point is that there are two options on the table. And people have the right to know this.


I would suggest new people seek out a true Dzogchen master with a genuine lineage, see if there is a good connection there, learn to trust him or her, then follow his/her instruction. Contrast this with the approach of making a decision first about what one thinks one should do, then looking for a teacher that sees things the same way.

But you got to admit that this raises some questions right'? I think what Yudron said is quite correct, but needs clarification.
You know there are teachers of impeccable lineage who turned out very disappointing. To a point in time they were highly regarded only to be discovered later that they were abusing some of their students. If a lineage is important, we need to go beyond that.

Then there's the matter of trust. Many people trust Michael Roach and "lama" Christie, for instance. We know how that ended.
And then there's the question, as I pointed earlier, of knowing who is a real Dzogchen teacher and who isn't. That's something we can only be 100% sure when this teacher introduces us to our real nature. Even if that happens, then there's a whole world of practice afterwards. A good teacher will provide us the techniques and orientation to make progress.

Here's a question: for how long is one to wait until the recognition of the natural state happens? Do we receive DI and go for it, trying to recognize it asap, or will we first practice tantra for a considerable number of years waiting to discover it at the end of the development stage, in the best case? I believe this is a question that should matter.
Let me give you a hypothetical case, a case that is known to happen. Imagine you follow a teacher well versed in tantra, but who can't, in fact, introduce you to your real nature. He gives you DI and then sends you to do ngondro. Let's assume he read a bit about Tulku Urgyen's ideas (a great teacher that influenced many younger lamas), for instance, who considered important to perform not 100.000 of each accumulation, but 400.000, if I'm not mistaken. This may keep anyone with a western life busy for a long time.
Then you engage in Yidam practice. Years pass and you keep practicing, but then effective introduction to your real nature is not going to happen. Why? Because your teacher doesn't have capacity for doing it. But you don't know that or even wonder about it, since you assume that first you need to do gazillions of accumulations. It's of common knowledge that there are "Dzogchen teachers" who in fact never get to the Dzogchen part. :lol: However, you think that is only going to happen if you successfully perform at least kyerim stage. You keep beating your chest 'not worthy, not worthy not worthy!' and who knows what will come first, recognition of the primordial state or death? You may die without actually having practiced Dzogchen.

I am not saying this is always the case, let me make that crystal clear. But only that it can happen. It doesn't matter if you get DI even before ngöndro if then you wait years on end practicing tantra until you start wondering why the hell recognizing the primordial state isn't happening. If you assume that is natural, than you keep practicing Tantra for many years without concern. That would be fine, unless you have the interest and capacity for Dzogchen practice. Then it would be a shame. Many students trust bad teachers, with lineage and who claim to be teaching Dzogchen when in fact they don't have such qualifications. See one of the points why I think these discussions may be important?
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mariusz » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:12 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Let me give you a hypothetical case, a case that is known to happen. Imagine you follow a teacher well versed in tantra, but who can't, in fact, introduce you to your real nature. He gives you DI and then sends you to do ngondro. Let's assume he read a bit about Tulku Urgyen's ideas (a great teacher that influenced many younger lamas), for instance, who considered important to perform not 100.000 of each accumulation, but 400.000, if I'm not mistaken. This may keep anyone with a western life busy for a long time.
Then you engage in Yidam practice. Years pass and you keep practicing, but then effective introduction to your real nature is not going to happen. Why? Because your teacher doesn't have capacity for doing it. But you don't know that or even wonder about it, since you assume that first you need to do gazillions of accumulations. It's of common knowledge that there are "Dzogchen teachers" who in fact never get to the Dzogchen part. :lol: However, you think that is only going to happen if you successfully perform at least kyerim stage. You keep beating your chest 'not worthy, not worthy not worthy!' and who knows what will come first, recognition of the primordial state or death? You may die without actually having practiced Dzogchen.

I am not saying this is always the case, let me make that crystal clear. But only that it can happen. It doesn't matter if you get DI even before ngöndro if then you wait years on end practicing tantra until you start wondering why the hell recognizing the primordial state isn't happening. If you assume that is natural, than you keep practicing Tantra for many years without concern. That would be fine, unless you have the interest and capacity for Dzogchen practice. Then it would be a shame. Many students trust bad teachers, with lineage and who claim to be teaching Dzogchen when in fact they don't have such qualifications. See one of the points why I think these discussions may be important?
Yes, it is only a hypothetical case for me. I've never met such. This whole topic on Ngondro are exaggerated :shrug:
Mariusz
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby oldbob » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:14 pm

zangskar wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:Yet another reason to have a DC thread for beginners as a 'sticky' with all this basic info on it. Maybe Bon Dzogchen schools could do the same. In that way a beginner could quickly read the information, access suitable links to info , membership and webcasts and subsequently examine deeper issues.

Only Mods can make a thread a 'sticky' so it stays at the top of the Dzogchen section. Recently we've had this 'beginners' thread which is starting to get into the old debate about preliminaries, and another where the discussion ended up about the financial management of DC.

If people don't mind asnwering the same questions and going round in circles that's fine, but there is a simple solution IMHO.

Yes, imagine if this was a yoga discussion forum, and every time someone asks "what is yoga? how do I start?" you get students from n different yoga schools arguing against each other. :)

As a casual reader of this forum, I would humbly suggest a F.A.Q. be made, which could provide brief descriptions of the views of different schools / gurus / lineages, and perhaps an acknowledgement that the term "Dzogchen" is - and will be - used by different schools to describe practices that of course have some common denominators but are not identical..
The F.A.Q. could make explicit what are common elements, and what are differences. And since this forum is full of enthusiastic people with lots of knowledge it should be easy to assemble one (maybe just by copy-paste of parts of old posts).

Best wishes
Lars


Dear Lars all and All,

:good:

This is the key point!

But the devil is in the details.

If the Dzogchen FAQ (or the DC FAQ) is written by someone who has a political ax to grind, then it will chop the heads of other viewpoints. For example if a Norbuista is on the "board" of DW then they might wield their editorial ax to remove a post, or redirect / Lock a thread that they do not agree with. While I am quite sure this has never happened on DW, I would suggest that acknowledged Norbuista's, or any "ista," recuse themselves from any editorial decisions that could give the appearance of partiality. Perhaps there needs to be a trusted advisory panel that editorial decisions could be appealed to. Perhaps an over-site editorial panel of neutral :smile: Buddhist academics (emeritus and active) could serve this function. Perhaps they would have a broad view and readily correct themselves if anyone got too far off the reservation.

Perhaps we can start a thread called candidates for a Dzogchen FAQ board of advisors.

Perhaps we can start a thread called candidates for a DC FAQ board of advisors.

I would propose ChNNR (please to remember that he is a retired professor, and is not partial), Jeffery Hopkins, Alexander (Robert) Thurman, Anne Klein, Donatella Rossi and Janet Gyatso for both boards.

Perhaps after collecting all nominations, then an academic from the DW board could approach these individuals to inquire if they would be willing to participate.

Any thoughts?

May the Dzogchen Masters live long, in good health and with success in all things.

Best, ob
oldbob
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:16 pm

Mariusz wrote:]Yes, it is only a hypothetical case for me. I've never met such. This whole topic on Ngondro are exaggerated :shrug:

I'm very glad you never met such case. But this topic is not about you alone, is it? ;)
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:22 pm

oldbob wrote:
Dear Lars all and All,

:good:

This is the key point!

But the devil is in the details.

If the Dzogchen FAQ (or the DC FAQ) is written by someone who has a political ax to grind, then it will chop the heads of other viewpoints. For example if a Norbuista is on the "board" of DW then they might wield their editorial ax to remove a post, or redirect / Lock a thread that they do not agree with. While I am quite sure this has never happened on DW, I would suggest that acknowledged Norbuista's, or any "ista," recuse themselves from any editorial decisions that could give the appearance of partiality. Perhaps there needs to be a trusted advisory panel that editorial decisions could be appealed to. Perhaps an over-site editorial panel of neutral :smile: Buddhist academics (emeritus and active) could serve this function. Perhaps they would have a broad view and readily correct themselves if anyone got too far off the reservation.

Perhaps we can start a thread called candidates for a Dzogchen FAQ board of advisors.

Perhaps we can start a thread called candidates for a DC FAQ board of advisors.

I would propose ChNNR (please to remember that he is a retired professor, and is not partial), Jeffery Hopkins, Alexander (Robert) Thurman, Anne Klein, Donatella Rossi and Janet Gyatso for both boards.

Perhaps after collecting all nominations, then an academic from the DW board could approach these individuals to inquire if they would be willing to participate.

Any thoughts?

May the Dzogchen Masters live long, in good health and with success in all things.

Best, ob

Well Bob, as you can see if you look closely, the administration was very carefull about that.

So we don't have any Dzogchen FAQ, but have a sticky topic with Dzogchen Resources from all quadrants.

What we do have is a topic called FAQ: Dzogchen Community of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, created by one of our regular members, as is his right, and not the mod team. It's not even a sticky topic, just a regular one, like others.

I wouldn't mind having such brilliant names in our moderators team. But your criticism seems a little unfair when faced with reality, does it not?
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mariusz » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:26 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Mariusz wrote:]Yes, it is only a hypothetical case for me. I've never met such. This whole topic on Ngondro are exaggerated :shrug:

I'm very glad you never met such case. But this is topic is not about you alone, is it? ;)
Hope not so. I even glad the masters teach 10%Ngondro for Dzogchen in order to see how people are genuine. If a genuine student can not fully do it really, He/She always can tell the master, and cooporate. We see they are not haphazard. You know during the retreats some happy go lucky people can be disturbing.
Mariusz
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:39 pm

So many people who aren't genuine completed ngöndro, mariusz...

And you see, that's one of my points of disagreement. Using ngöndro as a way to separate those who are genuine from those who aren't. It's really a sad way to look at it. Ngöndro serves to accumulate merits and purify karma. It's not he only way. That's all.
You have no basis to say that someone who didn't perform ngöndro is not genuine or the other way around. It's when people start thinking like that that things go wrong, even with their own practice. Ngöndro becomes a medal, a trophy. Not even teachers who put great emphasis in its practice mean it that way.
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby alpha » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:59 pm

I am very happy that there are people like CNNR on this planet which in an instant can fly up half way on that ngondro mountain yu've been stuck up for years and slap you 2 or 3 times and all of a sudden you find yourself solidly anchored to the ground and see your stupid and endless limitation with ngondro.

the very charming incarceration with the golden chain of ngondro has limited your ascension for so long and someone- who more often that not wears the colours of earth- comes along and wakes you up from your dream of becoming...

but as i can see this is not valid for everybody.
AOM
alpha
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: kent

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby oldbob » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:24 pm

Dear all and All,

Here is a reposting (with slight editing) that may apply here. viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8130&start=80#p111360

Everyone is making very good points :thanks: :namaste: :thanks: and all posts are exactly correct from the viewpoint of the person posting them. I think we are all trying to work this through in a good way.

:smile:

:heart:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

simhamuka wrote:

gregkavarnos wrote:Well, the "problem" is mainly regarding the Vajrayana view of the two truths. It is not 100% compatible with that of Dzogchen, wouldn't you agree? :smile:

From the dzogchen point of view the two truths are inseparable, per Jetsunma. So it's not really incompatible so much as things look different from the ground as compared to how they look from the top of the tower.

The real trick is what can one put into practice? I think it was Dudjom Rinpoche who, when asked for dzogchen teachings, asked those students to eat a pound of their own sh*t. If they couldn't eat it with same relish they'd have for a pound of chocolate, then he said they really didn't have dzogchen view. The necessity for the placebo becomes evident based on the actual RL view of the student.

Hi Simhamuka all and All,

Simhamuka is exactly correct. It looks complicated but it is not: things look different from the ground than they look from the top of the tower.

A great Dzogchen Master like HH Dudjom Rinpoche was teaching Dzogchen all the time with his being. That, and through the pointing out instruction, is how Dzogchen is taught. Words about Dzogchen, concepts about Dzogchen are not Dzogchen, nor are they placebos for anything. You can't swallow the Dzogchen corpus and then be able to eat shit with equanimity. No Dzogchen Master presents it this way. From the Dzogchen point of view, the two truths are inseparable, per the Great Being Jetsunma. When you have this view of inseparability, then you can eat shit, or anything, with equanimity, because whatever arises in your continuum has one taste: it is all flavored by instant presence. Note: if you eat actual shit, because it has harmful bacteria in it, you will get sick and you may die, even if you are a Dzogchen Master. You don't practice to get sick and die! :smile:

When you make a tsog, you can visualize the various items as various items. Then, if you can eat everything with equanimity (as a visualization) then you can understand what HHDR was talking about. So in the quote, HHDR could be saying, I am not going to teach you Dzogchen view unless you have Dzogchen view, and this knocks down to the 12 vajra laughs and the 8 amazing things. Sounds like, "you can't get there from here."

But you can!

This is why we practice Dzogchen: so when we take the pointing out instruction, or just even come into the presence of a realized Master, such as HHDR, then we will have the capacity to be in the same state as he is.

The key point for understanding, (and putting your mind at rest), is that from the view of Dzogchen, the accumulation of relative and absolute merit does not “earn” instant presence. Instant presence has no cause and does not depend on anything. No amount of accumulations can earn it.

At the same time, it is also true, that from the viewpoint of the normal mind, the earning of relative and absolute merit could be said to plant the causes of entering instant presence, but not through the activity of the earning of relative and absolute merit.

The causes that provide for easing the way into instant presence are the building up of the association with the Dzogchen Master, and your a-tuning to him/ her, over time.

This is why Guru Yoga is said to be the main practice of Dzogchen.

Some people arrive to the teachings with a greater or lesser capacity for going into the state of instant presence, perhaps because of practice in a past life. Some get instant presence on just walking into a room where a Dzogchen Master is staying. Some get instant presence the first time they take a pointing out instruction: others take longer.

Does this means that relative practice is a placebo for instant presence or for anything else?

No!

If a placebo works, it is not a placebo. Norman Cousins is said to have cured himself from Cancer by watching humor films. A happy person is full of lots of good causes which create good health. An unhappy person is full of lots of bad causes which create bad health. By watching the humor films, Norman Cousins was replacing his normal mind filled with his usual activities, with the humor, “story," of the films. His body responded by laughing. Ask Norman Cousins if the films, or laughter were a placebo for a cancer medicine and he will laugh: he will laugh informed by profound gratefulness that he is still alive to laugh. He took the pill of humor and the pill of laughter and it cured his disease.

We are doing exactly the same thing when we replace our normally distracted mind with sadhana practice. The cohesive activities of sadhana practice organize the actions of our body, speech, and mind to develop new habits of acting, talking and thinking. Developing the capacity for contemplation replaces monkey mind with peaceful absorption in the Jnanas.

I would not talk of creative visualization /absorption, as being a placebo for anything. The earning of relative merit / absolute merit has real actual benefits, such as developing a capacity for concentration, directed effort, developing a wholesome outlook on life (practicing the 4 immeasurables and the 10 golden things), having a strong body through prostrations and tsa lung practice, and a peaceful mind through developing the capacity for going into the absorptions.

Nundro, Lama, Yidam, and Khandro practices are not placebos for anything. They are the medicine of Lord Buddha, curing the disease of wrong activity, wrong speech and wrong views, and a path leading to realization in one life. The 9 yana framework includes Dzogchen: Ati has nothing to say. For some people this is indeed the perfect path and the quickest way up the mountain.

Please, anyone, correct me if you have a different view. I haven’t ever thought about this before and I am making it up as I go along.

If you want a really excellent presentation of the “Two Truths” in the Nyingmapa, I would refer you to “The Treasure of the Various Essential Necessities of General and Extraordinary Buddhist Dharma that are in the very concise book, The small Golden Key by the incomparable Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, may he always stay over my head.

Chapter eight explaines the Two Truths, very well.

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Golden-Key- ... Golden+Key

Hope this is of help to someone and that no one feels that I am stepping on their toes.

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ultimately, it remains for each of us to work out our path to realization with diligence!
Last edited by oldbob on Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
oldbob
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:40 pm

oldbob wrote:
Nundro, Lama, Yidam, and Khandro practices are not placebos for anything. They are the medicine of Lord Buddha, curing the disease of wrong activity, wrong speech and wrong views, and a path leading to realization in one life. The 9 yana framework includes Dzogchen. For some people this is indeed the perfect path and the quickest way up the mountain.



This is well said, as is the rest of your post.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2961
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mariusz » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:38 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:So many people who aren't genuine completed ngöndro, mariusz...

And you see, that's one of my points of disagreement. Using ngöndro as a way to separate those who are genuine from those who aren't. It's really a sad way to look at it. Ngöndro serves to accumulate merits and purify karma. It's not he only way. That's all.
You have no basis to say that someone who didn't perform ngöndro is not genuine or the other way around. It's when people start thinking like that that things go wrong, even with their own practice. Ngöndro becomes a medal, a trophy. Not even teachers who put great emphasis in its practice mean it that way.

It is not what I wrote. I wrote those who can finish 10%Ngondro and those who can not also, but have instruction from one's own master of dzogchen what should do instead (even nothing).
Mariusz
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 pm

I apologize if I didn't understand what you meant.
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mariusz » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:51 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I apologize if I didn't understand what you meant.

nothing happens. maybe just a little exaggeration again. I suppose some people from outside Buddhism can have trouble in Ngondro because taking refuge. In Ngondro of Nyinthig it is not exactly buddha, dharma, sangha but for example "basic space without appearancess" and so on. So don't worry, question first the master before you afraid and give up.
Mariusz
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:54 pm

Adamantine wrote:
oldbob wrote:
Nundro, Lama, Yidam, and Khandro practices are not placebos for anything. They are the medicine of Lord Buddha, curing the disease of wrong activity, wrong speech and wrong views, and a path leading to realization in one life. The 9 yana framework includes Dzogchen. For some people this is indeed the perfect path and the quickest way up the mountain.



This is well said, as is the rest of your post.



Tashi delek,

Because my English is not good enough, i never could say it like you did, oldBob.:D
Therefore :good:

Go on with your good postings!


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Fruitzilla, heart, underthetree and 21 guests

>