Dzogchen and ngöndro

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Bhusuku » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:29 am

Malcolm wrote:
Bhusuku wrote:
Adamantine wrote:These are just theories, and not corresponding to the way the Nyingmapas tell their own history.

Well, if you read about tibetan history and not only about the "way the Nyingmapas tell their own history" you'll get another picture... Yudron suggested Dalton's "Uses of the Dgong Pa ‘Dus Pa’i Mdo in the Development of the Rnying-Ma School of Tibetan Buddhism" earlier in this thread, and if I remember correctly, that text is a good start in this regard.



It's kind of funny to cite Dalton in defense of Nyingma orthopraxy since the conclusion of his PhD thesis is that Nubchen basically composed the anuyoga tantras with Chetsun Kye's help.

M



It wasn't meant as a source for defense of Nyingma orthopraxy, I just thought that it contains some interesting information on the persecution of Nyingmapas. However, after taking a short look at that thesis, I figured it probably wasn't the text I had in mind... I read so much stuff lately, I constantly mix up what I read where...

How did you actually manage to develop such incredible memory skills? Did you always had that gift or did you train that in certain ways? I really envy you about that. Most of the time I can't even remember what I read two days ago, and if I remember, I forgot where I read it :|
Bhusuku
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:18 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:49 am

My experience is that practicing of the higher yanas without faith and devotion is a dry experience that does not “progress.” As practice becomes more and more subtle, we are working more with the soft intuitive side of things and less with thought. At that point, for me, the only thing that makes practice warm and juicy is trust, love and devotion for my lamas. It is a practical matter – I need to free myself up, let the ice melt, if I don’t want to stagnate in my practice. The more love, the more the area around the heart center, even my head, relaxes and opens. The defended-ness of “I” lessons for me. Then, the practice gradually unfolds as they say in the books.

If faith and devotion = religion, then I strive to be more and more religious… for the sake of my practice, not anyone else.

Regarding Dalton, of course since he is approaching things from a (pretty respectful) western academic pov, it is a given that he is not going to approach things from a religious pov. But, if such a person (looking at things with a little bit of skepticism) believes the 9 yana scheme -- al beit not one that included Dzogchen Menngakde -- existed as early as the 9th century, I believe him. You know these guys don't usually date the Dzogchen tantras back that far. Is Nubchen now the great oppressor?
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Fa Dao » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:02 am

I don't think you're going to get it without getting the wang first. Or at least the lung and permission. And sadly, AFAIK, Rigdzen Dorje Rinpoche has not been back to the US in a while because of visa issues. -At least, I know the nuns that regularly traveled with him and did the healing cho sessions with him have not been able to get visas, because of the USA's stricter stance lately.


oh ok, so this one is not the same as what Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
User avatar
Fa Dao
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:45 am

Fa Dao wrote:
I don't think you're going to get it without getting the wang first. Or at least the lung and permission. And sadly, AFAIK, Rigdzen Dorje Rinpoche has not been back to the US in a while because of visa issues. -At least, I know the nuns that regularly traveled with him and did the healing cho sessions with him have not been able to get visas, because of the USA's stricter stance lately.


oh ok, so this one is not the same as what Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gives?


Nah, KDL was himself a great terton, and this was his own terma. I don't know who is authorized to transmit this other than his son and lineage heir.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:30 pm

Yudron wrote: Is Nubchen now the great oppressor?


My remark concerned Dalton, not Nubchen.

Anyway, the nine yānas are not a problem, since they include the tirthika vehicles as well, following the scheme laid out in the sgra thal gyur (first yāna, yāna of gods and humans).

The nine yānas are not reflective of the hostility Dzogchen recevied in Tibet, nor the continuing hostility Dzogchen has been subjected to in various Buddhist quarters, Sakya, Kagyu as well as Kadampa/Gelug.

The Bonpos, contrary to the post 10th century mythology of the imperial period, were never hostile to Dzogchen despite the fact that they definitely pushed back against in the three way political contest between Chinese influence, Indian influence, and native traditions.

It is funny you know: in the colophon of the Rigpa Rangshar tantra, when Trisrong Detsen is presenting the Rigpa Rangshar to Nyanbang he says “This [tantra] is evil mantra (ngan sngags) that will ruin Tibet. If Tibet comes to ruin, you should move this outside of it.”

What is hilarious about this of course is that the Rigpa Rangshar barely contains any mantras, has no methods of liberation or union, etc., and discusses the four empowerments of man ngag sde in only the barest of terms. But the message is Dzogchen is that anyone can understand it and practice it (providing they have transmission of course). This is threatening to Indian/Kadampa style gradualism that has come to dominate all schools of Tibetan Buddhism including modern Nyingma and Bon.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:12 pm

Malcolm this actually brings up an interesting point. I tried looking at some dzogchen tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum, and they were handwritten -- difficult to read and containing a lot of scribal mistakes. Many criticize the bible for being so rife with scribal errors compounded one upon the other that it could hardly reflect the early documents it purports to represent... and perhaps intentionally distorted in places.

Now, I don't know why you look at the Dzogchen tantras from a religious view when you are eschewing religion, but clearly you believe, as I do, that they are not Tibetan inventions. So, we believe--based really on faith and one or two Dunhuang fragments--they are not just 1,000 years old, but 2,000 or more years old. With each edition there have been scribal errors and edits by well-intentioned lamas trying to figure out what needs correcting--probably dozens of editions. Whomever Garab Dorje was, living in whatever era he did, what we have now as Dzogchen tantras clearly are not what he received from Vajrasattva.

Did I read somewhere that Jim Valby inputted a critical edition of the main 17 tantras?

In any event, while very interested in the current redaction of these ancient documents, I place my faith in the personal menngak from current Buddhas who have accomplished the path in the present.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:51 pm

in the 20+ years i've practiced tibetan buddhism, i've encountered a good deal of enmity from my fellow practitioners-- most of it sectarian in nature. i never thought i'd encounter it amongst fellow dzogchenpas. it is one thing to see inji converts pick up old stale tibetan religious politics, either accidentally or out of a misplaced sense of devotion. that happens. it's quite another to see people fighting with each other regarding ngondro and what dzogchen is or is not and so on. it doesn't really bother me. i'm too jaded and have too much faith in my lamas. but i feel for some poor guy or gal that has been fortunate to receive a few instructions, maybe even from a DC webcast, enough to bring them to liberation in this lifetime with faith and perseverance-- and out of genuine interest they come and see the "will the true dzogchen please stand up" debate on DW. ya know? when we talk about this stuff in public, we really need to think about others. if i were new and fell into most of these dzogchen threads, i'd probably come away thinking: "well, my lama gave me these instructions, but it sounds like the "real" dzogchen is over there. i must have misunderstood. my lama said to practice this, but it sounds like i skipped steps or got mixed up." i know that because i've been there. not on DW but in meat-space from dharma siblings having a lot to say about dzogchen practice. yes, ngondro and the two stages could be elaborations that help one stray from one's true nature-- but so can alot of talking about dzogchen. dzogchendzogchendzogchendzogchen.

-xy
User avatar
xylem
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:53 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:23 pm

Yudron wrote:Malcolm this actually brings up an interesting point. I tried looking at some dzogchen tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum, and they were handwritten -- difficult to read and containing a lot of scribal mistakes. Many criticize the bible for being so rife with scribal errors compounded one upon the other that it could hardly reflect the early documents it purports to represent... and perhaps intentionally distorted in places.



The Adzom Chogar edition of the seveteen tantras is the best; it is based on the Derge edition and provides all the alternate readings. For example, there were at least three manuscript traditions of the Rangshar -- the one in the Tingskye/Tsham brag edition is has differences in certain respects from the Adzom Chogar and is based on only one manuscript tradition.

Now, I don't know why you look at the Dzogchen tantras from a religious view when you are eschewing religion


I don't "beleive" in the Dzogchen tantras, I have personal experience of what they are discussing (no this does not mean I am a realized person). So I don't look at them from a religious point of view -- they are experiential manuals.

but clearly you believe, as I do, that they are not Tibetan inventions.


There are features of the Man ngag sde tantras that can only exist in native Tibetan compositions.

My view of the Dzogchen tantras is that they are human compositions, relative, and so confined in space and time to this epoch. For example, the Rangshar was taught by the primordial master Zhonnu Pawo Tobdan. But it also mentions Shankaracaraya and Kumarila who are both from the 7th-8th century. So when it was set down or recounted, in the enumeration of views, Vimalamitra or someone else, if it is really a translation, mentioned these Hindu masters who were of recent fame. So I think that the Dzogchen tantras have multiple layers and multiple authors. And this also does not mean that they do not have an oral origin in a guy named Garab Dorje -- we simply do not know.

But faith in the historicity of Garab Dorje, or the veracity of the traditional lineage account is unecessary for the pratice Dzogchen. Even if Dzogchen were invented yesterday by Eckhart Tolle, it would still be a verifiable personal experience one can have.

For example, the Rangshar's colophon holds that Vimalamitra translated the text using copies in three languages, that of Sanskrit, Oḍḍiyānese, and rgya nag, which at the time, probably meant Central Asia(according to Hansen-Barber), but usually is understood as China by modern Tibetans. This is strange and interesting.

So, we believe...they are not just 1,000 years old, but 2,000 or more years old.


I am not sure of that. All we know for sure is that around this literature emerged in the tenth century. We have no text datable prior to the tenth century apart from the Guhyagarbha tantra -- this is because Samyas burned down. Even so, the 17 tantras were supposedly confined to a single edition discovered by Dangma Lhungyal and given to Chetsun. Chetsun gave them to Zhangton in 1128 along with the Vima Nyinthig. He also gave them to Chegom who revealed some other interesting tantras (which are in NGB) that show up in slightly different recensions Gongpa Zangthal. At that time, Terma revelations were not so codified the way they are now. The colophons of the texts in the zangs yig can for example recommend that the pratitioner himself conceal the texts for later times if he cannot find a suitable disciple.

With each edition there have been scribal errors and edits by well-intentioned lamas trying to figure out what needs correcting--probably dozens of editions. Whomever Garab Dorje was, living in whatever era he did, what we have now as Dzogchen tantras clearly are not what he received from Vajrasattva.


Correct, these texts have been subject to emendation and addition. One thing, Garab Dorje was a nirmanakāya -- his speech is Vajrasattva and his mind is Samanabhadra. The three kāyas are inseperable -- so the Samantabhadra --> Vajrasattva --> Garab Dorje lineage thing is just a literary device, and not meant to be taken literally, IMO.

Did I read somewhere that Jim Valby inputted a critical edition of the main 17 tantras?

In any event, while very interested in the current redaction of these ancient documents, I place my faith in the personal menngak from current Buddhas who have accomplished the path in the present.


All the 17 tantras have been put on line in wylie, Valby's edition. They are a not a critical edition. For some tantras, he input parallel copies, which is better than "critical editions".

My present understanding of Dzogchen is entirely due primarily to the kindness of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, which is not to discount the kindness of othe teachers.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:28 pm

xylem wrote:"will the true dzogchen please stand up" debate on DW.

-xy



It's been going on since E-Sangha.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10163
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:29 pm

xylem wrote:in the 20+ years i've practiced tibetan buddhism, i've encountered a good deal of enmity from my fellow practitioners-- most of it sectarian in nature. i never thought i'd encounter it amongst fellow dzogchenpas. it is one thing to see inji converts pick up old stale tibetan religious politics, either accidentally or out of a misplaced sense of devotion. that happens. it's quite another to see people fighting with each other regarding ngondro and what dzogchen is or is not and so on. it doesn't really bother me. i'm too jaded and have too much faith in my lamas. but i feel for some poor guy or gal that has been fortunate to receive a few instructions, maybe even from a DC webcast, enough to bring them to liberation in this lifetime with faith and perseverance-- and out of genuine interest they come and see the "will the true dzogchen please stand up" debate on DW. ya know? when we talk about this stuff in public, we really need to think about others. if i were new and fell into most of these dzogchen threads, i'd probably come away thinking: "well, my lama gave me these instructions, but it sounds like the "real" dzogchen is over there. i must have misunderstood. my lama said to practice this, but it sounds like i skipped steps or got mixed up." i know that because i've been there. not on DW but in meat-space from dharma siblings having a lot to say about dzogchen practice. yes, ngondro and the two stages could be elaborations that help one stray from one's true nature-- but so can alot of talking about dzogchen. dzogchendzogchendzogchendzogchen.

-xy


And your suggestion is? Or did you came here only to criticize those who are having a discussion?
I always feel a little put off by the "observer" types who only come up to criticize those having a discussion. Sometimes it gets heated. Good arguments are presented. In the end everyone will practice according to his Guru's instructions.

We are presenting, from both sides, plausible arguments. Of course things should never become nasty, but nobody here is claiming to be perfect. I can't count the number of times Magnus and I disagreed about this. Or Adamantine. You pick. We go back a long ago. But much more numerous is the number of times I agree with him, or Adamanitine in so many other aspects.

What I believe it happens when someone reads these heated debates is that such person understand we are human, straightforward, make mistakes and move on. We don't stay angry with each other. We don't hold grudge. I greatly appreciate those who go through the trouble of presenting their arguments, even if not always I agree with them. We get mad, we make peace, we agree, we disagree. It's all part of human experience. This is the purpose of this topic. Perhaps the discussion was becoming a little over spread, but now it has a place.

I understand that we should do all in our power to avoid misleading others, or leaving them with a wrong impression, but this is a forum. It serves to discuss things, not only to nod in agreement with everything someone else says. That's an utopia tainted with a sanctimonious attitude that I don't find very healthy. Note that I'm not saying that's your attitude. I know where you are coming from and you made good points in your post. I'm just presenting another perspective. When people aren't natural and keep repressing their behavior, the time comes when they explode and that's worse.

I've seen too much "rotten" peace in Buddhist sanghas. So I thank Magnus, Adamantine, Yudron and everyone else who may disagree with me but care enough to offer their perspectives. It doesn't matter if now and then we get angry. It happens in samsara. It happens in our lives. Why should we pretend here that we are beyond that? If one day I meet one of them personally, it will be with great pleasure that I'll seat at their table.

:group:
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:05 pm

Yudron wrote:Did I read somewhere that Jim Valby inputted a critical edition of the main 17 tantras?

No but Norbu Rinpoche created a critical edition of the tantra Drathalgyur with its commentary by Vimalamitra.
Oh BTW, this year a root tantra of Dzogchen Semde should be published - Mejung (The Marvellous). It was translated by Adriano Clemente, Jim Valby and Elio Guarisco. And for the past two years or so Jim Valby has been publishing a series of translations of a commentary on the Kunjed Gyalpo.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: the Mejung in Tibetan.

Oh, don't bother your Rinpoche on my account. Just wondering if they plan to share it.
Last edited by Yudron on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:54 pm

Yudron wrote:
Pero wrote:
Yudron wrote:Did I read somewhere that Jim Valby inputted a critical edition of the main 17 tantras?

No but Norbu Rinpoche created a critical edition of the tantra Drathalgyur with its commentary by Vimalamitra.
Oh BTW, this year a root tantra of Dzogchen Semde should be published - Mejung (The Marvellous). It was translated by Adriano Clemente, Jim Valby and Elio Guarisco. And for the past two years or so Jim Valby has been publishing a series of translations of a commentary on the Kunjed Gyalpo.


This is really good news. It sounds like this one will be of excellent quality. The Supreme Source was a disappointing translation, I think because it was really translated into Italian then from Italian to English by another translator.

Why did you think it disappointing?
In any case, Jim is translating directly from Tibetan to English and I think it is different than Supreme Source (I haven't actually compared them side by side, more of an impression from reading both, so can't say which is better).

Hey, Malcolm and Pero--how can I get these inputted Tibetan texts mentioned in your posts? We have access to TBRC, are they there? Inputted Dzogchen texts are worth more than gold, if they aren't riddled with new mistakes.

Hmmmmm, I think they are only on Norbu Rinpoche's computer hahaha... At least the Drathalgyur, don't know about any others. It doubt it is riddled with new mistakes. If I remember right, Rinpoche used the two existant editions of the commentary and corrected all gramatical mistakes he found to create his edition. I don't know if this became available somewhere else. Would have to ask Rinpoche directly. It was a question I reserved for the future when I figured I'll know enough Tibetan to translate it haha (tried once in the past and failed truly miserably). Perhaps Malcolm knows more.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby muni » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:56 pm

[quote="Yudron"]

As practice becomes more and more subtle, we are working more with the soft intuitive side of things and less with thought. At that point, for me, the only thing that makes practice warm and juicy is trust, love and devotion for my lamas. It is a practical matter – I need to free myself up, let the ice melt, if I don’t want to stagnate in my practice. The more love, the more the area around the heart center, even my head, relaxes and opens.
quote]

:namaste:
muni
 
Posts: 2735
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:09 pm

I can't work so many quotation layer, let me try posting something simple.
Last edited by Yudron on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:11 pm

Yudron wrote:Well, its totally up to Rinpoche what he wants to share publicly then. I'm not some VIP who warrants wasting his time on.

Hehe it's not like he prepared it for himself. It could be that anyone could just email him for it and he'd send it, I don't know. But before I go ask him about it I'd rather see if Malcolm knows anything more about it. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:43 pm

I think I deleted my own post about the Supreme Source. I apologize if I didn't and I am being redundant.

Dzogchen terminology is very poetic, because it is trying to express the ineffable with as little dualism as possible. It's been very important in my practice to learn some Dzogchen terminology, and it is my intention to continue to learn more. At 53 I will never be a translator, nor do I want to be, but rather to connect with the full dimension of the wisdom that is being communicated.

Ideally, the texts should be set up with Tibetan and English side-by-side, but when that is offered, few people buy those books. So, they would require a very generous patron to produce. By the time the partial translation of the Kungyed Gyalpo made it from Tibetan to Italian and Italian to English, I could not figure out what Tibetan term was being referred to -- for me it just didn't connect. In addition, we work primarily with the translations of Richard Barron and Lama Ngawang Zangpo whose interpretation is shaped by lamas close to our tradition, so it is easy to know what they are talking about.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:07 am

dechen norbu-la...

my point stated in a more succinct way: theory is global and abstract-- practice is local and pragmatic. anyone with direct experience of vajrayana teachings, especially dzogchen and mahamudra, knows the difference. anyone fresh probably does not and abstract theoretical conversations can be confusing-- particularly about dzogchen and mahamudra. part of the reason these topics get so long winded and lost so long is because of precisely this category error.

-xy
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: inflammatory comment removed
User avatar
xylem
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:53 am

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:37 am

Perhaps. But has it occurred to you that these debates may actually be informative for someone who's making a choice?
If someone is interested in Dzogchen practice and faces the dilemma of considering or not tantric ngöndro mandatory, approaching Dzogchen via the nine yanas system or not, then these discussions may be informative. There's no consensus, there's debate and not always people agree. As in life there's no consensus about many options we have to make. Maybe they don't understand the fine points, but the main point is that there are two options on the table. And people have the right to know this.
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
 
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:45 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:Perhaps. But has it occurred to you that these debates may actually be informative for someone who's making a choice?
If someone is interested in Dzogchen practice and faces the dilemma of considering or not tantric ngöndro mandatory, approaching Dzogchen via the nine yanas system or not, then these discussions may be informative. There's no consensus, there's debate and not always people agree. As in life there's no consensus about many options we have to make. Maybe they don't understand the fine points, but the main point is that there are two options on the table. And people have the right to know this.


I would suggest new people seek out a true Dzogchen master with a genuine lineage, see if there is a good connection there, learn to trust him or her, then follow his/her instruction. Contrast this with the approach of making a decision first about what one thinks one should do, then looking for a teacher that sees things the same way.
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

>