Dzogchen and ngöndro

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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:26 pm

Tara wrote:kalden,

Please try to use the "quote" function correctly. It is really hard sometimes to read your posts as it is not clear who has written what without having to refer to previous posts. The "quote" function operates in much the same way as the "color" function which you seem to be able to use. The "quote" function will not work correctly unless things like the brackets [ ] equals symbol = quotation marks " " and forward slash / are in the right place. Here is a link with instructions on how to use the "quote" function http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB/faq.php?mode=bbcode#f2r0 .

Regards,



KY wrote:
Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

It did start with the request to change the blue letters in black, because of the shimmering effect on the eyes.
Now i have to learn to use in the correct way that "quote" function, to make a good converstaion possible. I am total aware of this temporal problem.
I can only say sorry.

Will do my best to get it running.
Hope this layout fits.

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Tara » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:46 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

It did start with the request to change the blue letters in black, because of the shimmering effect on the eyes.
Now i have to learn to use in the correct way that "quote" function, to make a good converstaion possible. I am total aware of this temporal problem.
I can only say sorry.

Will do my best to get it running.
Hope this layout fits.

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY


Thanks for making the effort to use the quote function correctly. One point there is no need to use "quote" "/quote" on what you write in your own post though by which I mean only use the quote function when quoting others that way it is easy for others to see what you have written and what you have quoted from other members posts.

Regards,
It's not a competition. It's a choice.
Tara
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:54 pm

Tara wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Thanks for your post.

It did start with the request to change the blue letters in black, because of the shimmering effect on the eyes.
Now i have to learn to use in the correct way that "quote" function, to make a good converstaion possible. I am total aware of this temporal problem.
I can only say sorry.

Will do my best to get it running.
Hope this layout fits.

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY


Thanks for making the effort to use the quote function correctly. One point there is no need to use "quote" "/quote" on what you write in your own post though by which I mean only use the quote function when quoting others that way it is easy for others to see what you have written and what you have quoted from other members posts.

Regards,


Tashi delek,

i guess i understood it. But what to do if i would take out of one of your lines some words, and to those i want make reference?

For instance:
One point there is no need to use "quote" "/quote" on what you write in your own post
Here i would answer. How must i proceed in this case? Must i quote it?


Thanks at beforehand for your attention

Sorry that i am off topic here :offtopic:

Mutosg Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Tara » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:09 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek,

i guess i understood it. But what to do if i would take out of one of your lines some words, and to those i want make reference?

For instance:
One point there is no need to use "quote" "/quote" on what you write in your own post
Here i would answer. How must i proceed in this case? Must i quote it?


Generally speaking it is possible to quote any section or part of someone else's post by using the "quote" at the beginning of the section you want to quote and "/quote" at the end so for example I have used "quote="kalden yungdrung"" at the very beginning of what you have written above then inserted "/quote" at the exact place in what you have written that I wish to respond to


Thanks at beforehand for your attention

Sorry that i am off topic here :offtopic:

Mutosg Marro
KY


Now because I am replying to you I only inserted "quote" at the beginning of the section above and "/quote" at the end. If however I was replying to another person not kalden yungdrung in this post as well as replying to kalden yungdrung I would use "quote=" name of person " at the beginning instead to make it clear who I am responding to and then use "/quote" at the exact place I want the quote to end. I hope this makes sense.

Regards,
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:13 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:

heart wrote:
Makes sense to me, but then I am not a DC follower. There are a lot of preliminaries and other helpful practices but the main practice is normally introduced already from the beginning.


[b][color=#000040]I am happy that there are persons here aboard like you, who don' t throw away usefull means like the precious preliminaries.
The main practice in Dzogchen cannot be reached, 1,2, 3, by persons with a low level of understanding, like for instance my mommy has. My mommy would need many preliminaries and basic teachings, before she could follow the main practice. This i would advice her because i know her well. If i would be too fast for her, she would get nervous and then she would never be in contact with Dzogchen matters anymore. Dzogchen would even become disgusting for her. :rolleye:


Yes, this is definitely a possibility for many of us which is why all Dzogchen masters teach a lot of methods, ChNNR also.

/magnus
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:19 pm

heart wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:

heart says
Makes sense to me, but then I am not a DC follower. There are a lot of preliminaries and other helpful practices but the main practice is normally introduced already from the beginning.

I am happy that there are persons here aboard like you, who don' t throw away usefull means like the precious preliminaries.
The main practice in Dzogchen cannot be reached, 1,2, 3, by persons with a low level of understanding, like for instance my mommy has. My mommy would need many preliminaries and basic teachings, before she could follow the main practice. This i would advice her because i know her well. If i would be too fast for her, she would get nervous and then she would never be in contact with Dzogchen matters anymore. Dzogchen would even become disgusting for her.
:rolleye:


Yes, this is definitely a possibility for many of us which is why all Dzogchen masters teach a lot of methods, ChNNR also.

/magnus


I'm definitely ok with that ... what I disagree with is when one says preliminaries are mandatory (which is the case of JLA)

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:26 pm

I'm not so sure about that kalden.
If you set your mother to do 100.000 or 400.000 prostrations plus the other accumulations which may be a little complicated, instead of going to the essence of the teachings, if that wouldn't drive her away much faster. Remember that in the West those things may look a bit bizarre. Our culture doesn't have these elements.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:34 pm

Sönam wrote:
I'm definitely ok with that ... what I disagree with is when one says preliminaries are mandatory (which is the case of JLA)

Sönam


My impression is that he thinks serious Dzogchen practitioners should do the preliminaries, so he probably think you are serious then Sönam.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:59 pm

The problem being that such assertion entails that those who don't do the preliminaries aren't serious Dzogchen practitioners, which is not a prudent thing to say.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Lhasa » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:15 pm

Wesley,
Who the teacher is, who you connect with is more important that what they may or may not require. I suggest you go on Ustream and Youtube and look up Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and spend quality time watching them, listening to them, doing the practices and meditations offered and see what/who you connect with. Do a search using 'dzogchen' or 'Tibetan Bon', will pull up more videos and teachers.
Those are the two Dzogchen Masters I know about. There are probably others. Maybe someone can add to the list?
Take the time to explore. As you can see, asking practioners from different traditions only ends up with folks throwing mashed potatoes at each other. :smile: And that doesn't help you at all.
Good luck with your search.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:16 pm

I find it strange that something as natural as your natural nature has to jump through so many hoops to see yourself :jumping:
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:54 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:The problem being that such assertion entails that those who don't do the preliminaries aren't serious Dzogchen practitioners, which is not a prudent thing to say.


Yeah, but that is his right to have that opinion, there is also quite a bit of both textual and oral support for that opinion as well. However, as Dzogchen practitioners our main source of instructions is our root Guru and that we have to match with our own knowledge of our own condition. I am pretty sure JLA agrees with that, so what we do or don't do is between our self and our Guru. My experience with JLA is that he is man that actually apply what he teach and I have read his book on the Bon Dzogchen preliminaries and in a way it is not that different from the ChNNR "the precious vase".

/magnus
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:58 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:I find it strange that something as natural as your natural nature has to jump through so many hoops to see yourself :jumping:


Yeah, but once you understand how unnatural and tense our samsaric minds actually are the reason for this becomes more obvious, it's a kind of pointing-out actually.

/magnus
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm

I don't dispute his right to such opinion. I just say it is not prudent.
I'm pretty sure you can find textual support for all kinds of limitations superimposed to Dzogchen along the ages. If you look hard enough, you can even find textual support dismissing Dzogchen altogether.
If one chooses to believe that ngöndro is essential, it's his right. However it doesn't matter as Dzogchen is a matter of experience, not belief. If your experience tells you that ngöndro is not mandatory, that supersedes the belief that it is. And that's what it boils down to. Experience vs belief.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm

heart wrote:[

Yeah, but once you understand how unnatural and tense our samsaric minds actually are the reason for this becomes more obvious, it's a kind of pointing-out actually.

/magnus



True....all the conditioning , since birth....it would be amazing to meet someone raised by Enlightened parents.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:14 pm

heart wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:I find it strange that something as natural as your natural nature has to jump through so many hoops to see yourself :jumping:


Yeah, but once you understand how unnatural and tense our samsaric minds actually are the reason for this becomes more obvious, it's a kind of pointing-out actually.

/magnus

Well, I completed a ngöndro and I'm not sure if after doing it my mind was significantly less tense or more natural. It seems I'm not the only one having such experience.
So it may not be the best prescription to everyone.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:17 pm

Sönam wrote:
I'm definitely ok with that ... what I disagree with is when one says preliminaries are mandatory (which is the case of JLA)

Sönam


Well they are mandatory if JLA is your teacher maybe, but he is not right? You should really rejoice in all the wonderful translations he are doing for french speaking people and support and encourage him instead of fighting him. He is a very serious Dzogchen practitioner a great scholar and translator and he been at this for long time, what is the problem?

/magnus
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:23 pm

I don't see why you put all in the same bag, Magnus. He may appreciate his work and yet disagree with him on this point. One thing doesn't exclude the other, like you are trying to associate.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:26 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
I'm definitely ok with that ... what I disagree with is when one says preliminaries are mandatory (which is the case of JLA)

Sönam


My impression is that he thinks serious Dzogchen practitioners should do the preliminaries, so he probably think you are serious then Sönam.

/magnus


This notion of "serious" is for me imaginary

Sönam
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:29 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
heart wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:I find it strange that something as natural as your natural nature has to jump through so many hoops to see yourself :jumping:


Yeah, but once you understand how unnatural and tense our samsaric minds actually are the reason for this becomes more obvious, it's a kind of pointing-out actually.

/magnus

Well, I completed a ngöndro and I'm not sure if after doing it my mind was significantly less tense or more natural. It seems I'm not the only one having such experience.
So it may not be the best prescription to everyone.


I wasn't talking about Ngondro here Dechen. Just that there is a possibility to actually recognize the nature of samsara when you work with a Guru and that then some of the more contrived practices we do can make more sense.

/magnus
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