Dzogchen and ngöndro

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Yudron » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:40 am

These arguments about what specific practices are necessary seem pretty irrelevant to me. I don't know anything about Dzogchen, but I've heard that accomplishment is based on 1) Having a qualified guru (someone who has brought his or her Dzogchen practice to culmination, this has been verified by his/her teacher, and who has been asked to teach Dzogchen based on this). 2) Being a qualified disciple (we skip over this part, don't we?) 3) Having pure view of one's guru. 4) Actually practicing daily.

Therefore, it is kind of irrelevant what concepts we have about what practices are helpful or unhelpful based on reading books or websites, or our own feelings. If we have pure view of our lama, we have faith in what practice he/she recommends. If we have not met a real dzogchen master yet (there are very few in this world), or we do not have the capacity yet to be a trusting disciple, let's not fool ourselves by giving ourselves some exalted name such as "Dzogchen practitioner."

Then, there is actually practicing (anything!), which very few people actually do consistently.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby In the bone yard » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:42 pm

It is good merit to study terms of Vajrayana and the like, otherwise we would have nowhere to show it off! :woohoo:
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:30 pm

Yudron wrote:These arguments about what specific practices are necessary seem pretty irrelevant to me. I don't know anything about Dzogchen, but I've heard that accomplishment is based on 1) Having a qualified guru (someone who has brought his or her Dzogchen practice to culmination, this has been verified by his/her teacher, and who has been asked to teach Dzogchen based on this). 2) Being a qualified disciple (we skip over this part, don't we?) 3) Having pure view of one's guru. 4) Actually practicing daily.

Therefore, it is kind of irrelevant what concepts we have about what practices are helpful or unhelpful based on reading books or websites, or our own feelings. If we have pure view of our lama, we have faith in what practice he/she recommends. If we have not met a real dzogchen master yet (there are very few in this world), or we do not have the capacity yet to be a trusting disciple, let's not fool ourselves by giving ourselves some exalted name such as "Dzogchen practitioner."

Then, there is actually practicing (anything!), which very few people actually do consistently.


I agree Yudron, this whole discussion stems from a few people here having a Guru that says it isn't necessary for them to do Ngondro or Yidam and for some reason they translate that personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:51 pm

Yudron wrote: 2) Being a qualified disciple (we skip over this part, don't we?)


If you have met Dzogchen teachings, you are a qualified disciple, in so far as you interested in practice.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:53 pm

heart wrote:I agree Yudron, this whole discussion stems from a few people here having a Guru that says it isn't necessary for them to do Ngondro or Yidam and for some reason they translate that personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching.



That's because this is what that Guru tells them is universally true about Dzogchen as presented in the original tantras of Dzogchen, which is the perspective from which he teaches.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:55 pm

heart wrote:
I agree Yudron, this whole discussion stems from a few people here having a Guru that says it isn't necessary for them to do Ngondro or Yidam and for some reason they translate that personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching.

/magnus

I beg to disagree, Magnus, and I your comment doesn't describe the situation accurately. That is among the reasons why I felt the need to create this topic.
You are accusing a few DC members from trying to impose an opinion to the general public, when in fact people have the right to voice their opinions, especially if they support them properly and do so according to the ToS. So it seems that it is you, not those whom you accuse of translating a personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching, who want to silence others and not the other way around. By the way, it is not a personal instruction. It's an approach to Dzogchen that anyone who wishes may follow.

Each time someone says that ngöndro or the traditional nine yanas approach to Dzogchen is not mandatory and may be detrimental in some circumstances (like when one doesn't have much time), according to their opinion (legitimate and allowed in this board), someone else comes argues the contrary and vice versa.
This is not a probelm per se, as the discussion is even quite interesting, but seeing it happening a little everywhere decreases the quality of the forum as many discussions derail because of this. In an attempt to solve this situation, this topic was created.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:05 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote: In an attempt to solve this situation, this topic was created.


This is just a rerun of conversations held at E-Sangha, with exactly the same players.

We are like old men in Miami arguing about a Dodgers game we both saw in the '50's.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Tara » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:This is just a rerun of conversations held at E-Sangha, with exactly the same players.

We are like old men in Miami arguing about a Dodgers game we both saw in the '50's.



:lol:

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:38 pm

*Edit*

Mutsuk, I read your other reply more carefully; and would have to revise my post in order to provide an adequate response.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:48 pm

Over 20 years ago I read the Crystal and the Way of Light. I Knew this was the path for me. I was doing Vajrayana at the time and was convinced by the "advanced" students and the Lama I was studying with that I HAD to complete ngondro etc beforeI could be introduced to the Dzogchen teachings, that it just simply WASNT done that way. I am now trying to not have feelings of profound sadness, anger and resentment for 20 YEARS LOST with a truly Realized master. So long story short I spent the last 20 years doing Chan/Zen/Pure Land practice. That is until I came onto this board a little over a year ago and saw some of the discussions on this and decided to try out the webcasts. I am 50 now and I am not as sharp as I was when I was younger but I guess its better late than never.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:I agree Yudron, this whole discussion stems from a few people here having a Guru that says it isn't necessary for them to do Ngondro or Yidam and for some reason they translate that personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching.



That's because this is what that Guru tells them is universally true about Dzogchen as presented in the original tantras of Dzogchen, which is the perspective from which he teaches.


You certainly have to pick and choose among the Dzogchen Tantras to come to that conclusion, I think you know this.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:51 pm

Fa Dao wrote: I am 50 now and I am not as sharp as I was when I was younger but I guess its better late than never.


Sharp and dull is of no consequence on Dzogchen. The only thing that matters is personal experience.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Pero » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote: 2) Being a qualified disciple (we skip over this part, don't we?)


If you have met Dzogchen teachings, you are a qualified disciple, in so far as you interested in practice.

This number one thing, but not only thing. Other qualifications are workable though, whereas if there is no interest everything else is meaningless. Yudron was saying what is needed for accomplishment, and I'd say turning oneself into a qualified student (not just being an interested one) is a good part of that.

This is just a rerun of conversations held at E-Sangha, with exactly the same players.

We are like old men in Miami arguing about a Dodgers game we both saw in the '50's.

:rolling:
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:57 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
heart wrote:
I agree Yudron, this whole discussion stems from a few people here having a Guru that says it isn't necessary for them to do Ngondro or Yidam and for some reason they translate that personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching.

/magnus

I beg to disagree, Magnus, and I your comment doesn't describe the situation accurately. That is among the reasons why I felt the need to create this topic.
You are accusing a few DC members from trying to impose an opinion to the general public, when in fact people have the right to voice their opinions, especially if they support them properly and do so according to the ToS. So it seems that it is you, not those whom you accuse of translating a personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching, who want to silence others and not the other way around. By the way, it is not a personal instruction. It's an approach to Dzogchen that anyone who wishes may follow.

Each time someone says that ngöndro or the traditional nine yanas approach to Dzogchen is not mandatory and may be detrimental in some circumstances (like when one doesn't have much time), according to their opinion (legitimate and allowed in this board), someone else comes argues the contrary and vice versa.
This is not a probelm per se, as the discussion is even quite interesting, but seeing it happening a little everywhere decreases the quality of the forum as many discussions derail because of this. In an attempt to solve this situation, this topic was created.


Who is saying Ngondro is mandatory Dechen? There are of course a lot of Dzogchen masters that say this, but who is saying it in this thread? I have never said it, I say it is between you and your Guru what you practice. I just say that Ngondro is a part of many Nyingthik teachings. On the other hand a lot of people in this thread, you included, insist that Ngondro isn't mandatory as a universal truth.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:07 pm

Pero wrote: Yudron was saying what is needed for accomplishment, and I'd say turning oneself into a qualified student (not just being an interested one) is a good part of that.


She does not use the word accomplishment once in her post. So I did not read it that way.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:23 pm

Do all the original Dzogchen Tantras that mention Rushen (all Menngagde I'd assume) say that we have to complete a specific number of preliminaries (Ngondro?) before Rushen?
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:25 pm

Sharp and dull is of no consequence on Dzogchen. The only thing that matters is personal experience.


Malcolm, I have heard Rinpoche say that but at the same time it would be nice to be a little sharper and not have to reread things over and over again :rolling:
Not to mention that now I am not in as good of a financial situation as I was back then. (sighs) I could have been a Norbuhead and followed him from retreat to retreat. :crying:
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fa Dao wrote: I am 50 now and I am not as sharp as I was when I was younger but I guess its better late than never.


Sharp and dull is of no consequence on Dzogchen. The only thing that matters is personal experience.

:thumbsup:
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:34 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sharp and dull is of no consequence on Dzogchen. The only thing that matters is personal experience.


Malcolm, I have heard Rinpoche say that but at the same time it would be nice to be a little sharper and not have to reread things over and over again :rolling:
Not to mention that now I am not in as good of a financial situation as I was back then. (sighs) I could have been a Norbuhead and followed him from retreat to retreat. :crying:

Don't worry. That's why we have constant webcasts, all year round. It's the best thing after being able to follow him and allows you to save $ and the tiresomeness of travelling so much. Plus you have more time to practice if you don't spend half of your time stuck on airports! :lol:
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Jacob » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:39 pm

My dream is to follow Rinpoche from retreat to retreat, but i am a student and simply can't afford it. But i was on one retreat, it costed my half year of non-eating on my studies and renouncing a lot, but i feel happy now :)
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