Dzogchen and ngöndro

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:11 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus



Dzogchen takes a critical posture towards the eight yanas (even the nine yanas), just as Vajrayāna takes a critical posture towards Mahayāna, and Mahāyāna, a critical posture towards hinayāna.

M


Yes, exactly.

/magnus


Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.

/magnus



What I mean by independent is that Dzogchen has its unique approach. It does not mean that Dzogchen cannot be approached thorugh mahā and anuyoga; it can; but it also has its own approach. Thus my Guru has said, and likewise my reading in early Dzogchen tantras bear this out.


Dzogchen certainly is unique and supreme in this world to the best of my knowledge, but I find it impossible to ignore the context in which it always appear.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus


They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.


If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.


It is unique but I can't see the independence.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:30 pm

Malcom,
We practice Dzogchen yet there isn't even Mahayana practice being shown in the thread.
If there is some good merit could someone please point to it?
Is it possible to practice Dzogchen, but have only Hinayana merit being revealed?

What good is book knowledge if it ain't getting us on the path?
There is no merit here, so how can there be good practice?

:toilet:

Can Dzogchen book knowledge shine through or am I the only one to see it?
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:38 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus


They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.


If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.

/magnus



They are related in terms of goal, that is the point of differentiating them.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.


If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.

/magnus



They are related in terms of goal, that is the point of differentiating them.


If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:49 pm

heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus


In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus


In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.



Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.

Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:23 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus


In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.



Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.

Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!

/magnus


View is what is being considered here.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:44 pm

heart wrote:Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.

Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!

/magnus

But the methods in Vajrayana serve a purpose. They are connected with the Vajrayana view and largely serve the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom quickly in order to fabricate Buddhahood. In Dzogchen we don't need to do that. Thus, we don't need to use those methods if we don't see it fit.

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus


In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.



Tashi delek,

Parallel roads can be traversed or all followed. Could they be interdependent for some people ?

Would it be that a Dzogchenpa could behave like a thief ? Ethics (Sutra) are sure a part of Dzogchen......
Doing Dzogchen protector practice is also part of Dzogchen.

I understood, that Dzogchen has all Teachings inside and that the other ways (Sutra and Tantra) can lead to Dzogchen or not.

So i cannot agree to independent Yanas, i never have had that experience in live, nevertheless what is sugested here.

Mutsog marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:05 am

heart wrote:Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.

/magnus


But the siddhi of Yamāntaka means something very specific, beyond ideas of what Vajrayāna is (and notions of Dzogchen too for that matter). Yamāntaka is the terminator of death and he conquers death by seeing the unreality of birth, so the siddhi of Yamāntaka is the direct realization of unborn non-dual perfection. Both birth and death are ideas, predicated on the existence of a subject. That is why you see Yamāntaka trampling images of the buddha and other deities, he's passed beyond clinging to them and abides freely in the simplicity of the natural state. The illusory manifestation of attachment and aversion is the ignorance that binds us. Mañjuśrīmitra, by discovering his true nature has passed beyond attachment (or aversion) to methods, ideas, concepts, they no longer govern his actions, they're merely ornaments. So I don't think that Mañjuśrīmitra is implying that his realization is fused with Vajrayāna, or that Dzogchen is inseparable from Vajrayāna.

Alan Watts discusses the iconography of Yamāntaka in this lecture on death:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioO-Pw_lxbI

Image
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
mutsuk wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

No, not in the Nyingthiks.


Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.


Certainly not. The first Zhelchem by Vajrasattva starts (more or less rendering from the french) :

"Kyema! Kyema! Ô sons of noble clans! I have collected for you the key points of all Secret Formulas; practice them like this :
The preliminaries of the body, speech, and mind
Consist in training to meditate on impermanence, generate compassion and bodhicitta."


This is clearly in the Vima Nyingthik. You can check the root text on TBRC where you'll get the page referenes if needed.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.

Wrong, this was already like this before, already with Nyangrel and Guru Chowang, in particular in their Yangti teachings.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
mutsuk wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

No, not in the Nyingthiks.


Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.


No. Again I checked in JL's translation of the Seryichen root-tantra and its commentary and chapter 5 clearly says preliminaries are to be performed before. The commentary by Garab Dorje explains the 7 lojongs. When you get oral transmission of the cycle (I refer to the footnotes added by JL from the transmissions he received), you get to perform this beginning of chapter 5 by : 1. first generating bodhicitta, 2. performing guru-yoga, 3. proceeding with the description of the preliminaries. It takes 21 days in this context. However, a footnote here says from all transmissions received, this is addressed to people who have already complete the entire Ngondro. They do again a 21 day retreat. The persons who enter the practice at that stage must have reached signs of purification of their three doors and mastery of their mind before moving to the Rushen and main practice. This is also confirmed by the oral instructions coming with the Zhelchems of Vajrasattva.

So to answer the query by Lhugpa (I think) : of course you do your preliminaries at the beginning of each sessions, starting with the connection to the lineage. In fact, you'll be doing your preliminaries all your life, but you won't be doing only preliminaries. They are a basis for the development of the main practice.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:36 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

As Magnus has said, there is no "pure Dzogchen". From the beginning the Upadesha has always been started with preliminaries. Check any major Nyingthik cycle, they are there. For instance, Yangti has these ordinary preliminaires. So from your point of view, would Yangti be not "enough Dzogchen" for you ?

And doing Ngondro before Rushen, Trekcho, etc. is traditional for Dzogchen integrated with lower Yanas.

No, because the Ngondro is common to Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. There is no mix up, except for those who fancy about a "pure" Dzogchen (Jax and co.).

And both ways are perfectly fine, and are also both "traditional" in their own way, yes?

Standard Upadehsa is best exemplified by Lama Yangtik. There are preliminaries there. It's traditional. There is nothing wrong with it.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mariusz » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus



renunciation
transformation
self-liberation

Three different paths, independent of each other.

M
This is only pedagogical scheme. Practical, in Dzogchen you need the master who presents you Rigpa by dzogchen method, in HYT you also need master who present you Clear Light by HYT method. In first case it is the Direct Introduction, Rushen... In second case it is completion stage. All these methods present it directly and nakely without "anything" be transformed. In HYT by tummo, vajra repetition and so on you get it vividly, what the master presented during the HYT initiation. So transformation or liberation is not the division here practically between Dzogchen and HYTantra/Inner Tantra.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:38 am

Malcolm wrote:Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.

The way to read the root-tantra of the Seryigchen involves extensive visualisations of the 5 main Buddhas. This demands some minimal skill in Kyerim capacities.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:59 am

Virgo wrote:
heart wrote:Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.

Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!

/magnus

But the methods in Vajrayana serve a purpose. They are connected with the Vajrayana view and largely serve the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom quickly in order to fabricate Buddhahood. In Dzogchen we don't need to do that. Thus, we don't need to use those methods if we don't see it fit.

Kevin


Fabricate Buddhahood? :smile: Is that why they are doing these practices in the SMS, they are fabricating Buddhahood?

If you want to use the methods of the lower yanas or not is your own business with your Guru. In all the Upadesa teachings I have seen and practiced there are clear instructions to apply contemplation of impermanence to let go of our fascination with Samsara, develop devotion to the Buddhas and compassion to sentient beings and practicing various visualizations like Yidam practices. All these are preliminaries to the rushan, trechö and tögal teachings. If my Guru tell me to practice this teaching exactly like it is presented in the Terma am I then mixing methods? ChNNR teach from the Longchen Nyinthig cycle and the Yangti cycle and the Dzogchen Desum cycle for example, thees cycles all have these kind of preliminary instructions. ChNNR might not be teaching that part, I don't know, but it is certainly there. So please bear this in mind during this discussion.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:13 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
heart wrote:Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.

/magnus


But the siddhi of Yamāntaka means something very specific, beyond ideas of what Vajrayāna is (and notions of Dzogchen too for that matter). Yamāntaka is the terminator of death and he conquers death by seeing the unreality of birth, so the siddhi of Yamāntaka is the direct realization of unborn non-dual perfection. Both birth and death are ideas, predicated on the existence of a subject. That is why you see Yamāntaka trampling images of the buddha and other deities, he's passed beyond clinging to them and abides freely in the simplicity of the natural state. The illusory manifestation of attachment and aversion is the ignorance that binds us. Mañjuśrīmitra, by discovering his true nature has passed beyond attachment (or aversion) to methods, ideas, concepts, they no longer govern his actions, they're merely ornaments. So I don't think that Mañjuśrīmitra is implying that his realization is fused with Vajrayāna, or that Dzogchen is inseparable from Vajrayāna.


Manjusrimita was a lineage holder of the Sadhana Section of Mahayoga. It certainly sounds like he considered the teaching of Garab Dorje as the siddhi of his Yidam Yamanataka. I does paint a vivid picture how closely related he considered this teachings to be, at least to me. But I see nothing wrong with what you say above except "I don't think that Mañjuśrīmitra is implying that his realization is fused with Vajrayāna" which would imply Dzogchen and Vajrayana were separated from the beginning, I don't believe that nor have I seen any proof of it.

http://www.rangjung.com/authors/Manjushrimitra.htm

/magnus
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