Dzogchen and ngöndro

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:14 pm

Malcholm wrote:
The "path" in Dzogchen is not like "path" in other systems, where you start out from point a and wind up at point b.
The "path" of Dzogchen is simple removing the jaundice of ignorance so you see what is there all along from the beginning. It is not about acquiring something new you did have before.



Tashi delek,

Well I don’t see many differences in the 3 Teachings, I am convinced that they are interdependent.
Also one can reach Dzogchen step by step. Herewith is thought of people with a lower level of understanding. Herewith do I mean myself as an example where I did reached Dzogchen over a more gradual Path of interdependency.
I got in Sutra result, in Tantra and finally in Dzogchen. This was done with the help of a gradual better knowing / understanding of mind and mind.

To remove ignorance, well here we have a wide range of means and to get ignorance cleared that is possible in all the 3 Teachings. Gradual seen is the mind cleaned little by little.

Regarding the Ngondro, I can agree that for some 10 prostrations are enough, in case of older people like my mom. The total amount of repetitions can be reduced as soon as there is result coming. Then do come the Rushens in the same way.

Tokden Drime Yungdrung Rinpoche, is for me then also an example as someone who did reached with his practice the Rainbow Body in 2002. Here one can watch that what Mutsog did also wrote about Lopon Tenzin Namdak’ s spiritual behavior, which is also in agreement with TDYR.

So for me and other Bonpos is it not strange to get to Dzogchen over a gradual way, it is part of our tradition.


Will recommend JL’s comments as a further elucidation to my point of view.


JL wrote once:

To envision properly the Paths of Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen, my root-master said :
"Look at how Zhinay aims at concentrating and stabilizing your mind ;
look at how Kyerim is a way of concentrating and stabilizing your mind to a much higher level with the various visualizations;
then look at how Trekchö is a way of cultivating and stablilizing the experience of the Natural State. Do you see the progression ?

Then, look at how Lhagthong aims at your integrating movements and piercing the real nature of things; then look at how the various kinds of Dzogrim aim at the same thing but with deeper means; then look at Thogel and see how you can integrate the Tsel of your own nature. Do you see the progression (or parallel)?
This is what we mean by Meditation of the 3 Vehicles (i.e. Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen). If you see contradictions, you are grasping at elaborations. If you don't see contradictions, you are understanding the real purpose (or : intent) of the teachings.

If this dawns clearly in your mind, then you understand that the Training in Ethics is necessary for the Training in Meditation and that without the latter, there is no Training in Wisdom. This is the reason why the teachings of the Buddhas are entirely perfect (yongs su rdzogs) in all their Vehicles."

After reading Shardza throughout and studying what his masters had him study, I am not so sure anymore about the differences in the 3 teachings.

Some reasons are that :
1. the basics of Sutras are true throughout the entirety of the Path,
2. the daily practice of Tantra is possible outside retreats,
3. the correct, authentic practice of Dzogchen is to be done in retreat only.

So, Tokden Rinpoche Drime Yungdrung, a highly realized master who did Rainbow Body in 2002 (and who taught Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche a year before his passing away) declared :

"My ethical conduct is that of a sutra practitioner,
my practice is that of the Yidam (tantra),
my View is that of Dzogchen (kadag + lhundrup)."


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:21 pm

Mutsuk, those are preliminaries, sure. Before any session of the Inner Rushen in the Dzogchen Community, we do the preliminaries too i.e. Guru Yoga with Guru Rinpoche, Refuge, Bodhicitta, etc. So in Nyingthig it is the same right? Meaning that even in Nyingthig we would not necessarily have to first do the actual full Ngondro (meaning we can just do preliminaries before each session of Rushen, as opposed to actually having to first complete 108,000 etc. of each), but just preliminaries before each session?
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:42 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

No, not in the Nyingthiks.


Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:18 pm

mutsuk wrote:Glad to hear that. Sonam wants everyone to see things the way he does.


Wrong, this is not what Sönam has said ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, he said "direct introduction". Why? Beause in Dzogchen Buddhahood exists to be demonstrated. If it is not demonstrated, there is no liberation, even though it is present from the beginning.


Exactly, and how do that happen? There are no rules, so stop pretending that there is.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:22 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

And doing Ngondro before Rushen, Trekcho, etc. is traditional for Dzogchen integrated with lower Yanas.

And both ways are perfectly fine, and are also both "traditional" in their own way, yes?


There is no "pure Dzogchen" it is a pipe dream.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:31 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, he said "direct introduction". Why? Beause in Dzogchen Buddhahood exists to be demonstrated. If it is not demonstrated, there is no liberation, even though it is present from the beginning.


Exactly, and how do that happen? There are no rules, so stop pretending that there is.

/magnus


Did I say anything about rules? Mutsuk was making a claim, proposing that there was always a sutra and Vajrayāna style ngondro attached to Dzogchen teachings and that this is evident in Nyinthig. Well, it is evident in Khandro Nyinthig tradition, but is not evident in the early 12th century Vima Nyinthig tradition. Even in the third Karmapa's commentary on the Vima Nyinthig, it is the seven mind trainings that are offered, unlike Kongtrul's large commentary on the Mother and son Nyinthigs, which has a standard ngondro attached.

After all, if you have confidence in the teachings, believe in your guru, and have compassion, what more do you need?

M
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:33 pm

heart wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

And doing Ngondro before Rushen, Trekcho, etc. is traditional for Dzogchen integrated with lower Yanas.

And both ways are perfectly fine, and are also both "traditional" in their own way, yes?


There is no "pure Dzogchen" it is a pipe dream.

/magnus


There are practices which come from the three series which are independent. They can be mixed with practices from the lower yanas or not.

How many more rounds do you want to fight until you get bored with it?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
mutsuk wrote:No, not in the Nyingthiks.


Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.


The "klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud" is not real Dzogchen? Is that what you are saying?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
There is no "pure Dzogchen" it is a pipe dream.

/magnus


There are practices which come from the three series which are independent. They can be mixed with practices from the lower yanas or not.

How many more rounds do you want to fight until you get bored with it?


Instead of just claiming Dzogchen is completely and fully independent of Vajrayana, how about you try to prove it? I have seen no proofs at all yet.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:43 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
mutsuk wrote:No, not in the Nyingthiks.


Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.


The "klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud" is not real Dzogchen? Is that what you are saying?

/magnus


It explains why there is a difference between the kama tradition on this point and the terma tradition.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:44 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
There is no "pure Dzogchen" it is a pipe dream.

/magnus


There are practices which come from the three series which are independent. They can be mixed with practices from the lower yanas or not.

How many more rounds do you want to fight until you get bored with it?


Instead of just claiming Dzogchen is completely and fully independent of Vajrayana, how about you try to prove it? I have seen no proofs at all yet.

/magnus


Do you think Dzogchen is not independent of Vajrayāna?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:45 pm

Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:55 pm

heart wrote:Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus



renunciation
transformation
self-liberation

Three different paths, independent of each other.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Do you think Dzogchen is not independent of Vajrayāna?


Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus



renunciation
transformation
self-liberation

Three different paths, independent of each other.

M


If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:08 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus



renunciation
transformation
self-liberation

Three different paths, independent of each other.

M


If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus



Dzogchen takes a critical posture towards the eight yanas (even the nine yanas), just as Vajrayāna takes a critical posture towards Mahayāna, and Mahāyāna, a critical posture towards hinayāna.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:10 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Do you think Dzogchen is not independent of Vajrayāna?


Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.

/magnus



What I mean by independent is that Dzogchen has its unique approach. It does not mean that Dzogchen cannot be approached thorugh mahā and anuyoga; it can; but it also has its own approach. Thus my Guru has said, and likewise my reading in early Dzogchen tantras bear this out.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus



Dzogchen takes a critical posture towards the eight yanas (even the nine yanas), just as Vajrayāna takes a critical posture towards Mahayāna, and Mahāyāna, a critical posture towards hinayāna.

M


Yes, exactly.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:11 pm

heart wrote:If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus


They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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