Dzogchen and ngöndro

[A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha]

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teachers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !

[Malcolm]

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teachers Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !

yes, though he did not teach any Dzogchgen texts directly, he predicted Garab Dorje.

[heart]

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teachers Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !

yes, though he did not teach any Dzogchgen texts directly, he predicted Garab Dorje.

ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

[Dechen Norbu]

You are to only one using the word mandatory Dechen. I hear a lot of bitterness in you but I can't see how I have anything to do with that.

/magnus

There's no bitterness here. I'm explaining what I'm doing, that's all. Can you stop guessing my mental states and intentions, please? Trying to place a negative emotional charge where there is none won't do much good for the discussion.

[Dechen Norbu]

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teachers Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !

yes, though he did not teach any Dzogchgen texts directly, he predicted Garab Dorje.

ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

Sources, please.

[Dechen Norbu]

Let's not go off topic.
Off topics posts will be removed. Let's try to keep this as focused as possible.

Thank you.

[heart]

ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

Sources, please.

"An oral commentary to Narag Tontrug" page 11: "In fact the Manjushri Tantra, which contains many oral transmissions and teachings, was taught by Shakyamuni through particular manifestations, and through these teachings he transmitted knowledge and understanding of the state of Dzogchen"

/magnus

[Malcolm]

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... e_teachers Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !

yes, though he did not teach any Dzogchgen texts directly, he predicted Garab Dorje.

ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

BTW, point of protocol, it is either Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. If you use one you do not need the other.

What do you mean: 1) ChNN says that Shakyamuni taught Dzogchen 2) he predicted Garab Dorje?

[A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha]

Who taught Sakyamuni dzogchen?
The 11th Ngöndzok Gyalpo ?
Did Sakyamuni recieve pointing out from Ngondzok ?

[Pero]

ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

BTW, point of protocol, it is either Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. If you use one you do not need the other.

Wow really? Did not know that...

[Malcolm]

ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

Sources, please.

"An oral commentary to Narag Tontrug" page 11: "In fact the Manjushri Tantra, which contains many oral transmissions and teachings, was taught by Shakyamuni through particular manifestations, and through these teachings he transmitted knowledge and understanding of the state of Dzogchen"

/magnus

Oh, that is quite different. Mañjuśrī nāmasaṃgiti is not a Dzogchen tantra, and can be understood in many different ways. That being said, there are passages in the Nāmasaṃgiti which show up in Dzogchen tantras, such as "The single eye of wisdom is stainless".

But you will never find Sakyamuni giving a teaching on Dzogchen in an explicit way.

[heart]

BTW, point of protocol, it is either Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. If you use one you do not need the other.

What do you mean: 1) ChNN says that Shakyamuni taught Dzogchen 2) he predicted Garab Dorje?

What is wrong with calling him "the precious Dharma King Namkhai Norbu"?

For the rest, see above.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Who taught Sakyamuni dzogchen?
The 11th Ngöndzok Gyalpo ?
Did Sakyamuni recieve pointing out from Ngondzok ?

According to the Bonpos, Shakyamuni received Dzogchen teachings from Shenrab when the former incarnated as Sangba Dupa.

But in a way that is a wrong question, Shakyamuni did not need anyone to give him transmission since he was a nirmanakāya.

[heart]

"An oral commentary to Narag Tontrug" page 11: "In fact the Manjushri Tantra, which contains many oral transmissions and teachings, was taught by Shakyamuni through particular manifestations, and through these teachings he transmitted knowledge and understanding of the state of Dzogchen"

/magnus

Oh, that is quite different. Mañjuśrī nāmasaṃgiti is not a Dzogchen tantra, and can be understood in many different ways. That being said, there are passages in the Nāmasaṃgiti which show up in Dzogchen tantras, such as "The single eye of wisdom is stainless".

But you will never find Sakyamuni giving a teaching on Dzogchen in an explicit way.

This is an exact quote.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

BTW, point of protocol, it is either Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. If you use one you do not need the other.

What do you mean: 1) ChNN says that Shakyamuni taught Dzogchen 2) he predicted Garab Dorje?

What is wrong with calling him "the precious Dharma King Namkhai Norbu"?

For the rest, see above.

/magnus

Nothing, it simply is not necessary. His formal title is Chogyal, that is more proper than "Rinpoche". You could call him Chogyal Rinpoche, which is how he was known in Tibet.

[Malcolm]

"An oral commentary to Narag Tontrug" page 11: "In fact the Manjushri Tantra, which contains many oral transmissions and teachings, was taught by Shakyamuni through particular manifestations, and through these teachings he transmitted knowledge and understanding of the state of Dzogchen"

/magnus

Oh, that is quite different. Mañjuśrī nāmasaṃgiti is not a Dzogchen tantra, and can be understood in many different ways. That being said, there are passages in the Nāmasaṃgiti which show up in Dzogchen tantras, such as "The single eye of wisdom is stainless".

But you will never find Sakyamuni giving a teaching on Dzogchen in an explicit way.

This is an exact quote.

/magnus

Yes, I know. Nevertheless, ChNN also maintains that Shakyamuni never taught Dzogchen explicitly. I have heard him say it any number time. Man you are stubborn.

It is getting to the fraking point on this board that unless you come armed with a volume of fraking citations you cannot say anything.

Kunsanggar, June 1st, 2001:
"Buddha Shakyamuni did not directly teach Dzogchen. Not only Buddha Sakyamuni, but some of the other twelve teachers did not directly give Dzogchen teachings. They communicated indirectly because the essence of their teaching is Dzogchen."

[A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha]

IMHO,
The Diamond Sutra is a Dzogchen teaching. Also The Heart Sutra. Any teaching on Emptiness really...no ?

[Malcolm]

IMHO,
The Diamond Sutra is a Dzogchen teaching. Also The Heart Sutra. Any teaching on Emptiness really...no ?

Indirectly, yes.

[rose]

This particular topic is specifically "Dzogchen and ngöndro. Off topic posts will continue to be removed.

Dzogchen and ngöndro

Regards,

[A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha]

But in a way that is a wrong question, Shakyamuni did not need anyone to give him transmission

Yes, My keyborD is like Doing ngonDro I was going to mension that too.