Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.heart wrote:Yes, exactly.Malcolm wrote:heart wrote:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus
Dzogchen takes a critical posture towards the eight yanas (even the nine yanas), just as Vajrayāna takes a critical posture towards Mahayāna, and Mahāyāna, a critical posture towards hinayāna.
M
/magnus
Dzogchen and ngöndro
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Dzogchen certainly is unique and supreme in this world to the best of my knowledge, but I find it impossible to ignore the context in which it always appear.Malcolm wrote:heart wrote:
Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.
/magnus
What I mean by independent is that Dzogchen has its unique approach. It does not mean that Dzogchen cannot be approached thorugh mahā and anuyoga; it can; but it also has its own approach. Thus my Guru has said, and likewise my reading in early Dzogchen tantras bear this out.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.Malcolm wrote:They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.heart wrote: If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
It is unique but I can't see the independence.Malcolm wrote: Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
-
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:06 am
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Malcom,
We practice Dzogchen yet there isn't even Mahayana practice being shown in the thread.
If there is some good merit could someone please point to it?
Is it possible to practice Dzogchen, but have only Hinayana merit being revealed?
What good is book knowledge if it ain't getting us on the path?
There is no merit here, so how can there be good practice?
Can Dzogchen book knowledge shine through or am I the only one to see it?
We practice Dzogchen yet there isn't even Mahayana practice being shown in the thread.
If there is some good merit could someone please point to it?
Is it possible to practice Dzogchen, but have only Hinayana merit being revealed?
What good is book knowledge if it ain't getting us on the path?
There is no merit here, so how can there be good practice?
Can Dzogchen book knowledge shine through or am I the only one to see it?
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
heart wrote:If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.Malcolm wrote:They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.heart wrote: If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus
/magnus
They are related in terms of goal, that is the point of differentiating them.
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".Malcolm wrote:heart wrote:If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.Malcolm wrote:
They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.
/magnus
They are related in terms of goal, that is the point of differentiating them.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".
/magnus
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Malcolm wrote:In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".
/magnus
Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.
Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
View is what is being considered here.heart wrote:Malcolm wrote:In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".
/magnus
Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.
Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!
/magnus
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
But the methods in Vajrayana serve a purpose. They are connected with the Vajrayana view and largely serve the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom quickly in order to fabricate Buddhahood. In Dzogchen we don't need to do that. Thus, we don't need to use those methods if we don't see it fit.heart wrote: Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.
Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!
/magnus
Kevin
- kalden yungdrung
- Posts: 4606
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Malcolm wrote:In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.heart wrote:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".
/magnus
Tashi delek,
Parallel roads can be traversed or all followed. Could they be interdependent for some people ?
Would it be that a Dzogchenpa could behave like a thief ? Ethics (Sutra) are sure a part of Dzogchen......
Doing Dzogchen protector practice is also part of Dzogchen.
I understood, that Dzogchen has all Teachings inside and that the other ways (Sutra and Tantra) can lead to Dzogchen or not.
So i cannot agree to independent Yanas, i never have had that experience in live, nevertheless what is sugested here.
Mutsog marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
But the siddhi of Yamāntaka means something very specific, beyond ideas of what Vajrayāna is (and notions of Dzogchen too for that matter). Yamāntaka is the terminator of death and he conquers death by seeing the unreality of birth, so the siddhi of Yamāntaka is the direct realization of unborn non-dual perfection. Both birth and death are ideas, predicated on the existence of a subject. That is why you see Yamāntaka trampling images of the buddha and other deities, he's passed beyond clinging to them and abides freely in the simplicity of the natural state. The illusory manifestation of attachment and aversion is the ignorance that binds us. Mañjuśrīmitra, by discovering his true nature has passed beyond attachment (or aversion) to methods, ideas, concepts, they no longer govern his actions, they're merely ornaments. So I don't think that Mañjuśrīmitra is implying that his realization is fused with Vajrayāna, or that Dzogchen is inseparable from Vajrayāna.heart wrote: Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.
/magnus
Alan Watts discusses the iconography of Yamāntaka in this lecture on death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioO-Pw_lxbI
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Certainly not. The first Zhelchem by Vajrasattva starts (more or less rendering from the french) :Malcolm wrote:Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.mutsuk wrote:No, not in the Nyingthiks.Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.
"Kyema! Kyema! Ô sons of noble clans! I have collected for you the key points of all Secret Formulas; practice them like this :
The preliminaries of the body, speech, and mind
Consist in training to meditate on impermanence, generate compassion and bodhicitta."
This is clearly in the Vima Nyingthik. You can check the root text on TBRC where you'll get the page referenes if needed.
Wrong, this was already like this before, already with Nyangrel and Guru Chowang, in particular in their Yangti teachings.This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
No. Again I checked in JL's translation of the Seryichen root-tantra and its commentary and chapter 5 clearly says preliminaries are to be performed before. The commentary by Garab Dorje explains the 7 lojongs. When you get oral transmission of the cycle (I refer to the footnotes added by JL from the transmissions he received), you get to perform this beginning of chapter 5 by : 1. first generating bodhicitta, 2. performing guru-yoga, 3. proceeding with the description of the preliminaries. It takes 21 days in this context. However, a footnote here says from all transmissions received, this is addressed to people who have already complete the entire Ngondro. They do again a 21 day retreat. The persons who enter the practice at that stage must have reached signs of purification of their three doors and mastery of their mind before moving to the Rushen and main practice. This is also confirmed by the oral instructions coming with the Zhelchems of Vajrasattva.Malcolm wrote:Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.mutsuk wrote:No, not in the Nyingthiks.Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.
This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.
So to answer the query by Lhugpa (I think) : of course you do your preliminaries at the beginning of each sessions, starting with the connection to the lineage. In fact, you'll be doing your preliminaries all your life, but you won't be doing only preliminaries. They are a basis for the development of the main practice.
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
As Magnus has said, there is no "pure Dzogchen". From the beginning the Upadesha has always been started with preliminaries. Check any major Nyingthik cycle, they are there. For instance, Yangti has these ordinary preliminaires. So from your point of view, would Yangti be not "enough Dzogchen" for you ?Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.
No, because the Ngondro is common to Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. There is no mix up, except for those who fancy about a "pure" Dzogchen (Jax and co.).And doing Ngondro before Rushen, Trekcho, etc. is traditional for Dzogchen integrated with lower Yanas.
Standard Upadehsa is best exemplified by Lama Yangtik. There are preliminaries there. It's traditional. There is nothing wrong with it.And both ways are perfectly fine, and are also both "traditional" in their own way, yes?
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
This is only pedagogical scheme. Practical, in Dzogchen you need the master who presents you Rigpa by dzogchen method, in HYT you also need master who present you Clear Light by HYT method. In first case it is the Direct Introduction, Rushen... In second case it is completion stage. All these methods present it directly and nakely without "anything" be transformed. In HYT by tummo, vajra repetition and so on you get it vividly, what the master presented during the HYT initiation. So transformation or liberation is not the division here practically between Dzogchen and HYTantra/Inner Tantra.Malcolm wrote:heart wrote:Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.
/magnus
renunciation
transformation
self-liberation
Three different paths, independent of each other.
M
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
The way to read the root-tantra of the Seryigchen involves extensive visualisations of the 5 main Buddhas. This demands some minimal skill in Kyerim capacities.Malcolm wrote: Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Fabricate Buddhahood? Is that why they are doing these practices in the SMS, they are fabricating Buddhahood?Virgo wrote:But the methods in Vajrayana serve a purpose. They are connected with the Vajrayana view and largely serve the purpose of accumulating merit and wisdom quickly in order to fabricate Buddhahood. In Dzogchen we don't need to do that. Thus, we don't need to use those methods if we don't see it fit.heart wrote: Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.
Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!
/magnus
Kevin
If you want to use the methods of the lower yanas or not is your own business with your Guru. In all the Upadesa teachings I have seen and practiced there are clear instructions to apply contemplation of impermanence to let go of our fascination with Samsara, develop devotion to the Buddhas and compassion to sentient beings and practicing various visualizations like Yidam practices. All these are preliminaries to the rushan, trechö and tögal teachings. If my Guru tell me to practice this teaching exactly like it is presented in the Terma am I then mixing methods? ChNNR teach from the Longchen Nyinthig cycle and the Yangti cycle and the Dzogchen Desum cycle for example, thees cycles all have these kind of preliminary instructions. ChNNR might not be teaching that part, I don't know, but it is certainly there. So please bear this in mind during this discussion.
/magnus
Last edited by heart on Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Manjusrimita was a lineage holder of the Sadhana Section of Mahayoga. It certainly sounds like he considered the teaching of Garab Dorje as the siddhi of his Yidam Yamanataka. I does paint a vivid picture how closely related he considered this teachings to be, at least to me. But I see nothing wrong with what you say above except "I don't think that Mañjuśrīmitra is implying that his realization is fused with Vajrayāna" which would imply Dzogchen and Vajrayana were separated from the beginning, I don't believe that nor have I seen any proof of it.asunthatneversets wrote:But the siddhi of Yamāntaka means something very specific, beyond ideas of what Vajrayāna is (and notions of Dzogchen too for that matter). Yamāntaka is the terminator of death and he conquers death by seeing the unreality of birth, so the siddhi of Yamāntaka is the direct realization of unborn non-dual perfection. Both birth and death are ideas, predicated on the existence of a subject. That is why you see Yamāntaka trampling images of the buddha and other deities, he's passed beyond clinging to them and abides freely in the simplicity of the natural state. The illusory manifestation of attachment and aversion is the ignorance that binds us. Mañjuśrīmitra, by discovering his true nature has passed beyond attachment (or aversion) to methods, ideas, concepts, they no longer govern his actions, they're merely ornaments. So I don't think that Mañjuśrīmitra is implying that his realization is fused with Vajrayāna, or that Dzogchen is inseparable from Vajrayāna.heart wrote: Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.
/magnus
http://www.rangjung.com/authors/Manjushrimitra.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)