No need for relative bodhicitta

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No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby jnanasutra » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:14 am

isn't it amazing that in Dzogchen there is no need to cultivate relative bodhicitta because dynamic compassionate activity is already present in the basis. We do not say that the buddha's activity is like a wish-fulfilling gem which manifests due to disciples prayers and aspirations, but rather compassion manifest of it own accord as a natural expression of the basis. How nice! :smile:
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:22 am

jnanasutra wrote:isn't it amazing that in Dzogchen there is no need to cultivate relative bodhicitta because dynamic compassionate activity is already present in the basis. We do not say that the buddha's activity is like a wish-fulfilling gem which manifests due to disciples prayers and aspirations, but rather compassion manifest of it own accord as a natural expression of the basis. How nice! :smile:



Actually, we say it is exactly like a wishfulling gem that spontaneously manifests whatever is wished for -- that is the energy of the basis.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby jnanasutra » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
jnanasutra wrote:isn't it amazing that in Dzogchen there is no need to cultivate relative bodhicitta because dynamic compassionate activity is already present in the basis. We do not say that the buddha's activity is like a wish-fulfilling gem which manifests due to disciples prayers and aspirations, but rather compassion manifest of it own accord as a natural expression of the basis. How nice! :smile:



Actually, we say it is exactly like a wishfulling gem that spontaneously manifests whatever is wished for -- that is the energy of the basis.



Right, it is the energy of the basis, not dependent on the wishes and aspirations of disciples. It is an inherent natural expression, not dependent upon others.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:40 am

jnanasutra wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
jnanasutra wrote:isn't it amazing that in Dzogchen there is no need to cultivate relative bodhicitta because dynamic compassionate activity is already present in the basis. We do not say that the buddha's activity is like a wish-fulfilling gem which manifests due to disciples prayers and aspirations, but rather compassion manifest of it own accord as a natural expression of the basis. How nice! :smile:



Actually, we say it is exactly like a wishfulling gem that spontaneously manifests whatever is wished for -- that is the energy of the basis.



Right, it is the energy of the basis, not dependent on the wishes and aspirations of disciples. It is an inherent natural expression, not dependent upon others.


What I am saying is that Dzogchen tantras and text explicitly use the metaphor of the wishfulfilling gem.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Adamantine » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:22 am

I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this. And as many of you may know, he teaches Dzogchen very openly, having been a close disciple of Khenpo Munsel in prison for 20 years or so in occupied Tibet. He is a great yogi, and had the opportunity to put the teachings to the test in one of the most difficult circumstances one could imagine in the human realm. He also really emphasizes bodhicitta in all his teachings. Here is the question and answer below:

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence
of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have
been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature
of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to
try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?


Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:28 am

Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this...


I am glad you had this teaching from Garchen Rinpoche, I hope you apply it well.

M
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Adamantine » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:33 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this...


I am glad you had this teaching from Garchen Rinpoche, I hope you apply it well.

M


Me too! and I hope we all can :smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:53 am

Compassion is a natural expression because all reference points are empty. It's impossible to pass judgement without a point of reference. Just like a mirror, or the surface of a lake both reflect without bias. The natural state is unobstructed and is completely perfect just as it is.

That being said, we should still seek to exhibit noble conduct in the relative condition. The very first time I met my mentor he taught me "Inwardly conduct yourself with presence and awareness, outwardly conduct yourself with kindness and compassion."
Last edited by asunthatneversets on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby jnanasutra » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:20 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Compassion is a natural expression because all reference points are empty. It's impossible to pass judgement without a point of reference. Just like a mirror, or the surface of a lake both reflect without bias. The natural state is unobstructed and is completely perfect just as it is.


This only address the Dharmakaya, or purity. The Kayas and Vidya are naturally formed in the basis as the energy of the basis. Compassion is not merely the state free from all reference points.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:27 am

jnanasutra wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Compassion is a natural expression because all reference points are empty. It's impossible to pass judgement without a point of reference. Just like a mirror, or the surface of a lake both reflect without bias. The natural state is unobstructed and is completely perfect just as it is.


This only address the Dharmakaya, or purity. The Kayas and Vidya are naturally formed in the basis as the energy of the basis. Compassion is not merely the state free from all reference points.


I never propagated a mere state free of reference points. The kayas are all complementary aspects of the same wisdom.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby heart » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:07 am

Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this. And as many of you may know, he teaches Dzogchen very openly, having been a close disciple of Khenpo Munsel in prison for 20 years or so in occupied Tibet. He is a great yogi, and had the opportunity to put the teachings to the test in one of the most difficult circumstances one could imagine in the human realm. He also really emphasizes bodhicitta in all his teachings. Here is the question and answer below:

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence
of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have
been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature
of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to
try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?


Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.



:good:

Excellent! Straight to the heart.

/magnus
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:55 pm

heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this. And as many of you may know, he teaches Dzogchen very openly, having been a close disciple of Khenpo Munsel in prison for 20 years or so in occupied Tibet. He is a great yogi, and had the opportunity to put the teachings to the test in one of the most difficult circumstances one could imagine in the human realm. He also really emphasizes bodhicitta in all his teachings. Here is the question and answer below:

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence
of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have
been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature
of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to
try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?


Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.



:good:

Excellent! Straight to the heart.

/magnus


Yup!
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Pero » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:18 pm

Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this. And as many of you may know, he teaches Dzogchen very openly, having been a close disciple of Khenpo Munsel in prison for 20 years or so in occupied Tibet. He is a great yogi, and had the opportunity to put the teachings to the test in one of the most difficult circumstances one could imagine in the human realm. He also really emphasizes bodhicitta in all his teachings. Here is the question and answer below:

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence
of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have
been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature
of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to
try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?


Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.

Wow what a great quote. Thanks!
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:25 am

Adamantine wrote:
Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.


:good:

And, seriously, anyone who argues against the above is simply glomming onto some intellectual fabrication of what Dzogchen is supposed to be based on things they've read or heard but had insufficient direct experience of. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and imagine we're just effortlessly enacting limitless compassion and skillful means for other just yet.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:18 pm

Energy is a wave. Burst and pulsate love.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby anjali » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:40 pm

Adamantine wrote:Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence
of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have
been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature
of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to
try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?


Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.


Such a beautiful teaching!

It still seems to leave unanswered the original question of whether 1) resting in the natural state also melts the "frozen block of ice" of the Buddha nature, and 2) whether there is any essential preference for resting or cultivating.
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Buddha
If there is clinging, you do not have the view. --Drakpa Gyaltsen
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Sönam » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:14 pm

oldbob wrote:
heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this. And as many of you may know, he teaches Dzogchen very openly, having been a close disciple of Khenpo Munsel in prison for 20 years or so in occupied Tibet. He is a great yogi, and had the opportunity to put the teachings to the test in one of the most difficult circumstances one could imagine in the human realm. He also really emphasizes bodhicitta in all his teachings. Here is the question and answer below:

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence
of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have
been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous nature
of mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to
try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?


Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,
temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like
pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled.
Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—it
has frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized
by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of
compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the
actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas are
one. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,
or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them
because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing,
but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and
consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love
feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; there
is a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this
is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be
interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow
again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will
always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love
others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind
becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is
happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.



:good:

Excellent! Straight to the heart.

/magnus


Yup!


... yup !
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:57 pm

anjali wrote:It still seems to leave unanswered the original question of whether 1) resting in the natural state also melts the "frozen block of ice" of the Buddha nature, and 2) whether there is any essential preference for resting or cultivating.

For the first, according my understanding, yes. For the second, I don't understand the question.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby anjali » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:46 pm

Pero wrote:
anjali wrote:It still seems to leave unanswered the original question of whether 1) resting in the natural state also melts the "frozen block of ice" of the Buddha nature, and 2) whether there is any essential preference for resting or cultivating.

For the first, according my understanding, yes. For the second, I don't understand the question.


I should have expanded a bit more on 2: is there any essential preference for resting (in the natural state) or cultivating (relative bodhicitta)? This was Adamantine's original question: "...is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?"

Garchin Rinpoche gave a wonderful teaching on the cultivation of relative bodhicitta and it's benefits, but I don't see that he directly addressed Adamantine's question. If resting in the natural state can and does "melt the ice of self-grasping", using GR's expression, then it shouldn't matter which approach is taken.
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Buddha
If there is clinging, you do not have the view. --Drakpa Gyaltsen
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Re: No need for relative bodhicitta

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:13 am

For Dzogchen practitioners, I would say it should be like this: focus on guru yoga and tregchod (or practices that help you ascertain knowledge of the natural state if you don't yet have that knowledge) and make the preceding cultivation of bodhicitta your reason for doing it. I.E. in formal practice, give rise to the motivation to liberate all beings and determine to train to fully actualize your knowledge of the true nature in order to accomplish that.
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