Nakedness

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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sally Gross » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:10 pm

Simon E. wrote:Dont kid yourself, :lol: Of course its personal.
I will take full responsibility for my part in the response to my posts.
It was unwise and possibly premature by a few years.
It did not occur to me ( naively ) that by responding to Macolm's account of his journey with empathy that the reaction would be defensiveness,fear, and dismissiveness.
But actually that should have been predictable..after all you do not know me.
Although I suspect that Silent Bob is someone I knew while we were both students of CTR.
I received teachings from the 16th Karmapa.
I knew Ole before he was Lama Ole.
I also recieved teachings from Kalu Rinpoche and Chime Yongden Rinpoche... before becoming a student of Thrangu Rinpoche.
Whose retreats in Nepal I attended.
Between that time and becoming a student of ChNNN I had grown weary of western Buddhists.
I looked around and saw few of them walking the talk.
Most of the time many of them were notable for a lack of basic human kindness and decency.
They were filled with opinion and a need for attention.
Many of them, a much higher proportion than the general public, were depressed or suffered from clinical anxiety. ( I am a psychotherapist )
Their Buddhism may not in all cases have been the cause of their clinical condition, but it sure as hell wasn't helping it.
Instead it was making solid their neurosis and grasping after an identity.
In short ,when I read the post which led to Namdrol becoming Malcolm I was moved by it, and felt the need against my own better judgement to respond.
This was a mistake. This online community has formed over several years and has well established behaviors. The mores are embedded.
Unless one has the kind of clout that Macolm clearly has, any questioning of those mores are seen as a threat and the result is aggression.
Self appointed guardians of the Dharma take up their cudgels,
So as I said...a mistake.
Good will to all of good will.
Any contact I have in future with this forum will be of a " read only " kind.
:hi:

:namaste:


A message from the heart: I don't have the wisdom to find words which are adequate as a response to your message. The sense of hurt and despair, at least in the context of this forum, saddens me. An intuitive response: :consoling:

A more intellectual response, but not one which really engages with your message as it should: A pattern I've seen many times, both in my own life and the lives of others, is what Hegelians perhaps call "the leaping transformation of a thing into its opposite". As a practising psychotherapist, it is unlikely that you have not encountered it. An example of this comes to mind from Isaac Deutcher's The Prophet Armed, the magnificent first volume of his Trotsky trilogy. In his account of Trotsky's youth and involvement in his first illegal group, which included both Marxists and Narodniks (populists), who were not Marxists and some of whom were anti-Marxist. There was fierce debate within the group about the virtues and vices of Marxism, and the young Lev Davidovich Bronstein (this was before he had taken the non-de-guerre "Trotsky") was the most vociferous and eloquent opponent of Marxism in the group for a long time. It turned out, interestingly, that the ferocity with which he opposed Marxism in these debates was in fact a patina. His opposition to Marxism was not nearly as inflexible as he was at pains to make it seem. Underneath it all, probably subliminally, he was becoming increasingly persuaded of the virtues of Marxism, this presumably passed some inner threshold, and lo and behold one fine day he reversed his public position completely. While I do not expect something of this kind to happen en-masse on the list, my sense is that the passion in many of the messages and the extent to which Malcolm's changed positions have stirred things up tells a story about positions which are perhaps somewhat less entrenched, underneath it all, than they appear to be on the surface. Something I've also learnt in ther areas of life is that it is important to be very patient indeed. Much of my own passion has been invested in activism and awareness-raising around intersex -- I am intersexed: from development in the womb, my anatomy has not followed the usual paths of male or female -- and it took literally years for seeds which I planted here in South Africa to begin to germinate and to sprout. Please don't lose heart.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Nakedness

Postby heart » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:16 pm

Simon E. wrote:
heart wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Clearly Heart you would rather I did not post here.Your consistent tone makes that plain.
And I certainly have no emotional or psychological need to do so. So I will wish you well and concede to your wish.

:namaste:


No, don't be ridiculous. I certainly hope you keep posting. I said exactly the same things to others and I even suggested they added it to the ToS, it is not personal.

/magnus

Dont kid yourself, :lol: Of course its personal.



No, I said exactly the same thing to Dechen Namdrol not long ago.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sönam » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:49 pm

heart wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
heart wrote:
No, don't be ridiculous. I certainly hope you keep posting. I said exactly the same things to others and I even suggested they added it to the ToS, it is not personal.

/magnus

Dont kid yourself, :lol: Of course its personal.



No, I said exactly the same thing to Dechen Namdrol not long ago.

/magnus


I did too received some skuds from you :rolling:

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:41 pm

Simon E. wrote:Any contact I have in future with this forum will be of a " read only " kind.


Don't do it. You're needed here.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:59 pm

oldbob wrote:

Mia Culpa, please forgive me.



Bob,

Sharing instructions no one asked for is a little strange.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:03 pm

"Now tell us what it actually means in terms of Dzogchen...words about words about words are still ...words. And time is still a- wasting even when we discus the fact."

He was trying to answer this query in terms of a practice not with just "words", I think.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:15 pm

Simon E - the concepts you have of Dharma Wheel and the posters who post here are nothing solid or real. You know this. Not only that but it's impossible to have a concept that lasts unless you cling to the concept. Both friends and enemies are empty forms. ''To take them as being truly real will only make your many sufferings increase. To know they are empty forms will make illusion-like samahdi increase, compassion free of clinging will increase.'' (you get 100 dharma points if you know who this quote is from).
For me the the best practice has been to have an angry wife. Or was she angry?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby oldbob » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
oldbob wrote:

Mia Culpa, please forgive me.



Bob,

Sharing instructions no one asked for is a little strange.

M


Hi Malcolm, all and ALL,

Respectfully,

Please read Simon's excellent question.

How (in Dzogchen) do you use words, to go beyond words, in the face of death (while time's a wasting.")
My offering of a non-verbal experience in a simple practice, is a non-verbal way of possibly answering that question.

Try it you'll like it. Have a piece of fruit. Take two they're small -and don't touch fried food! :smile:

I don't have any wisdom, but I can tell you where I go when I want to get some (with apologies for the canned laughter).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnLqLHWDg5E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EdSRv0b ... ure=relmfu

Now this is wisdom! (If you can get past the canned laughter.) :smile:

Respectfully,

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:09 pm

oldbob wrote:My offering of a non-verbal experience in a simple practice, is a non-verbal way of possibly answering that question.


I am pretty certain he told you he was not interested.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Lhasa » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Hold your ground, Bob. :good:
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Re: Nakedness

Postby oldbob » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
oldbob wrote:My offering of a non-verbal experience in a simple practice, is a non-verbal way of possibly answering that question.


I am pretty certain he told you he was not interested.


Malcolm,

Respectfully,

"Eat a nectarine: it's the best fruit ever made." :smile:

Respectfully,

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:28 pm

oldbob wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
oldbob wrote:My offering of a non-verbal experience in a simple practice, is a non-verbal way of possibly answering that question.


I am pretty certain he told you he was not interested.


Malcolm,

Respectfully,

"Eat a nectarine it's the best fruit ever made."

Respectfully,

ob


Bob:

When someone asks you teach, then you teach, in a proper way, in a proper place, at a proper time.

Otherwise, offering unasked for instructions is a mistake.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Nakedness

Postby oldbob » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:37 pm

I am pretty certain he told you he was not interested.


Malcolm,

Respectfully,

"Eat a nectarine it's the best fruit ever made."

Respectfully,

ob[/quote]

Bob:

When someone asks you teach, then you teach, in a proper way, in a proper place, at a proper time.

Otherwise, offering unasked for instructions is a mistake.

M[/quote]

Malcolm,

Respectfully,

Me thinks ye are hoist by your own petard, :smile:

and I agree completely. Perhaps we have different visions of what is proper.

Respectfully,

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby heart » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:40 pm

Sönam wrote:
I did too received some skuds from you :rolling:

Sönam


Well old man, I know from experience that you can handle it so I didn't mention you. :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Nakedness

Postby uan » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Andrew108 wrote:For me the the best practice has been to have an angry wife. Or was she angry?


that's been the basis of my practice for the last 15 years :rolling: (no, really, seriously...lol)
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Re: Nakedness

Postby heart » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:49 pm

Andrew108 wrote:For me the the best practice has been to have an angry wife. Or was she angry?


I had a bit of that myself in the past so I know what you are talking about :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:13 pm

oldbob wrote:
Me thinks ye are hoist by your own petard, :smile:



I never offer instructions here, only opinions.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Nakedness

Postby heart » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:28 pm

Simon E. wrote:Between that time and becoming a student of ChNNN I had grown weary of western Buddhists.


I am also an reasonable old hand at this and I have some understanding of that weariness. Thrangu Rinpoche is also one of my important teachers since he gave me my first Dzogchen empowerment's (DamNgak Dzö in Sweden 1992) that completely blow my mind. Since then I had no doubt what my practice is. I have been a fan of ChNNR for a long time and I do some practices I received from him. To tell you the truth my biggest doubt about him is his students and the way they act, also on this forum. But then again I have a lot of doubts about all Dharma groups and centers. Maybe I am just getting old, I don't know, and all that glitters don't look like gold anymore. I just keep to myself and have a few discussions on this forum now and then. We probably have a lot in common Simon and there is no reason at all for you to think I am out to get you.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Ogyen » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:33 pm

p.s.

being naked rules!!!!!!!!
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
oldbob wrote:
Me thinks ye are hoist by your own petard, :smile:



I never offer instructions here, only opinions.



The phrase actually means that in order to test a cannon (petar/petard) , the engineer who made it is strapped across the muzzle.

Malcolm seems to have tested many things and has indeed revealed the result of testing the ChNNR canon. :)
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