Institutional Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 5:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
This sentence structure
I am not saying that there are no good monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos and tulkus,
clearly indicates that good monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos and Tulkus would be the rare exception,
not the rule.


Thank you for telling me what I mean. Honestly-- the amazing thing to me is how you and others go out of your way to misrepresent what I say. I never do that you or anyone else.

It is quite dishonest -- you sound like Fox News.


That's not what you meant? Then clarify, because I was not trying
to misrepresent you, that's clearly how I read it based on your choice
of words and sentence structure.

Calling me dishonest is ad hom, I am just trying to respond to your own writing.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:45 am

Adamantine wrote:Listen, I don't disagree with many of your critiques
of Tibetan Buddhist institutional politics. I think there
are many problems with institutions in general, not only
monastic or political ones. I am aware of many problems in Tibetan
politics both historically and currently.

However, I separate that from my experience, because my experience,
---and it has been extensive-- has been wholly positive.


You are lucky you are not an attractive woman.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:45 am

Adamantine wrote:
That's not what you meant? Then clarify, because I was not trying
to misrepresent you, that's clearly how I read it based on your choice
of words and sentence structure.


You could have asked me what I meant. Instead you chose to read into it.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:47 am

LunaRoja wrote: Many dharma centers subsist on fledgeling budgets barely making ends meet. I just don't see all the financial corruptions.


Whatever made you think I was talking about the pathetic Dharma center scene in the US? Though one reason it is pretty sad is that when Lama tours come through everyone goes broke trying to host them and money sure does not stay in the Dharma centers.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 27, 2012 5:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote: Many dharma centers subsist on fledgeling budgets barely making ends meet. I just don't see all the financial corruptions.


Whatever made you think I was talking about the pathetic Dharma center scene in the US? Though one reason it is pretty sad is that when Lama tours come through everyone goes broke trying to host them and money sure does not stay in the Dharma centers.


Actually the point that I was trying to make is that there are other Lamas like ChNN that do not live off of donations and visiting Lamas that do not walk away with large sums of money.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:58 am

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
LunaRoja wrote: Many dharma centers subsist on fledgeling budgets barely making ends meet. I just don't see all the financial corruptions.


Whatever made you think I was talking about the pathetic Dharma center scene in the US? Though one reason it is pretty sad is that when Lama tours come through everyone goes broke trying to host them and money sure does not stay in the Dharma centers.


Actually the point that I was trying to make is that there are other Lamas like ChNN that do not live off of donations and visiting Lamas that do not walk away with large sums of money.



Yes, there are some.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 7:03 am

Malcolm wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:I am becoming a little tired of seeing you distort what Malcom says, Adamantine.
I don't know if you aren't really understanding him or if you are distorting what he says on purpose by reasons unknown to me, but nevertheless it's becoming annoying already. Can you stop? Thank you.


He is just pissed because I am tired of the hierarchical bullshit that is so integral to Tibetan Buddhism and am open about it. He is mad because I have over the years made it absolutely clear that I disdain the tulku system as a mere money game, and so on. He is mad because I don't respect the system -- and I don't. Of course, lotuses grow in swamps, and likewise, there are mavelous persons who have come out of that system, or rather, despite it. I also don't share the sort of lame "anti-science" rhetoric he is into dereived in large part from the late Thrinly Norbu Rinpoche. He brought it up earlier in this thread and it is never far from his lips in these discussions. Now, I understand why he is into it, since TNR is one his gurus, but I don't find it TNR's arguments very compelling at all, and I am far from a "new athiest" of the Dawkins and Harris variety. Indeed, recently, Adamantine compared me with Batchelor, as if I had abandoned the notion of rebirth. So he is clearly approaching me from some ideological bent that I honestly can't relate to.


Wow. For someone who gets so upset about me supposedly
putting words in your mouth you've just crammed a whole lot of words thoughts
and emotions into mine.

Amazing projection technique you have.

In case you care, I don't have any of these sentiments
that you're claiming I do... But please, keep fantasizing.

Anti-science? You clearly have no idea who you're talking to or
you haven't read my posts with much attention. This is getting absurd.

Is it possible to try to stay on point, or do you prefer to act juvenile
and keep talking about my innermost feelings with Dechen?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 7:12 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:I am becoming a little tired of seeing you distort what Malcom says, Adamantine.
I don't know if you aren't really understanding him or if you are distorting what he says on purpose by reasons unknown to me, but nevertheless it's becoming annoying already. Can you stop? Thank you.


Karmic vision apparently Dechen. We are reading the same
posts. I am responding sincerely to what I see in them. If you think that
is distortion, then it is because you read them a different way. Only
Malcolm can clarify what he really means. If you're annoyed, stop following the thread.
Or put me on ignore. When I see thing represented in
what I feel are subjective, unbalanced and bias ways by an influential
person on a public Buddhist forum I have a perfect right to challenge them.
Telling me to shut up is just kind of insulting, and not really in the
spirit of an open forum.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 7:38 am

Malcolm wrote:There is way too much corruption, greed, abuse, and lust for power, title and position in Tibetan Buddhism and in Buddhism in general. There are way too many Lamas who abuse the Dharma to control people, to control scandals, to extort money from their students, etc. This completely wrong. But I have seen that Tibetan Buddhist institutions run on cash. It is all about the money. Everytime Lamas come here they are putting out the plate for donations. Of course, they have to, because they are expected to, it is their job. But frankly, I am fatigued by it. I could go on and on about my gripes about the way Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps I have just seen one corrupt lama too many.


How should I interpret this?

Would it be wrong to interpret this to mean:

1.There is way too much corruption, greed, abuse, and lust for power, title and position in Tibetan Buddhism and in Buddhism in general.

Too much = more this than positive qualities, or benefits?

If not, what do you mean by too much?

2. There are way too many Lamas who abuse the Dharma to control people, to control scandals, to extort money from their students, etc.

What do you mean by too many? More than ones who do not do these things?
If not, what do you mean?

3. It is all about the money.

Do you mean Tibetan Buddhism is all about the money?

If not, what do you mean?

Ok, I am trying to ask you what you mean, as you suggested. So I don't misinterpret or misrepresent.
I hope you'll explain in depth.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sun May 27, 2012 8:12 am

Malcolm wrote:There is way too much corruption, greed, abuse, and lust for power, title and position in Tibetan Buddhism and in Buddhism in general. There are way too many Lamas who abuse the Dharma to control people, to control scandals, to extort money from their students, etc. This completely wrong. But I have seen that Tibetan Buddhist institutions run on cash. It is all about the money. Everytime Lamas come here they are putting out the plate for donations. Of course, they have to, because they are expected to, it is their job. But frankly, I am fatigued by it. I could go on and on about my gripes about the way Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps I have just seen one corrupt lama too many.


True this Malcolm. Hope this doesn't happen with Dzogchen.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sun May 27, 2012 9:39 am

Now, anyone who have listen to today's teachings know why DC is not like Dharma centers ... with many limitations.

"DC is open to any kind of existence, not only Buddhism or Bön, but also Muslim, Christian, etc ..."
"When I am passing does not mean it is finish ... that's why my students collaborate ..."
"There is no Dzogchen way, no Dzogchen method, no Dzogchen philosophy ..."
"Dzogchen is you are ready to collaborate with others"

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 27, 2012 10:35 am

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:There is way too much corruption, greed, abuse, and lust for power, title and position in Tibetan Buddhism and in Buddhism in general. There are way too many Lamas who abuse the Dharma to control people, to control scandals, to extort money from their students, etc. This completely wrong. But I have seen that Tibetan Buddhist institutions run on cash. It is all about the money. Everytime Lamas come here they are putting out the plate for donations. Of course, they have to, because they are expected to, it is their job. But frankly, I am fatigued by it. I could go on and on about my gripes about the way Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps I have just seen one corrupt lama too many.


True this Malcolm. Hope this doesn't happen with Dzogchen.



Tashi delek,

Dzogchen is not Buddhist and Bon etc. so it must be logical freed of corruptions.
No Dzogchen is practiced by humans also called Dzogchenpas and here it is the same beat like in other Traditions.
If Dzogchen would be practiced by animals, we get another photo / picture, but animals don't practice Dzogchen and here i am glad that Dzogchen is self-protected thanks also to its Protectors.

Mutsog marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pero » Sun May 27, 2012 10:40 am

Bhusuku wrote:
Sherlock wrote:...if anyone reaches SMS Level 9...

I'm curious about that. I mean, AFAIK, until today no one, not even the oldest students who are practicing since almost 40 years passed beyond level 4 or 5, hence I'm wondering how big the chances are that anybody ever is going to reach level 9... :shrug:

BTW, is Khyentse Yeshe actually participating in the SMS program? I ask, because he doesn't show up in the lists of SMS instructors...

Yes, he is. And he's a base level teacher.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sun May 27, 2012 10:56 am

Andrew108 wrote:
Sönam wrote:Now, anyone who have listen to today's teachings know why DC is not like Dharma centers ... with many limitations.

"DC is open to any kind of existence, not only Buddhism or Bön, but also Muslim, Christian, etc ..."
"When I am passing does not mean it is finish ... that's why my students collaborate ..."
"There is no Dzogchen way, no Dzogchen method, no Dzogchen philosophy ..."
"Dzogchen is you are ready to collaborate with others"

Sönam

How have you interpreted this? "There is no Dzogchen way, no Dzogchen method, no Dzogchen philosophy ..."
and then this: "Dzogchen is you are ready to collaborate with others".
Is it that in Dzogchen you always keep an open mind? That it's silent and somewhat secret? That really you don't try to convince people of it or teach them in anyway? That you work with their beliefs which are more important than your own? That you are not conditioned - not even by Dzogchen. That you are completely open and accepting of new situations without wanting to complicate the 'now' by bringing faith into it. That you have no agenda - especially not about Dzogchen. That no statements about what Dzogchen is or is not suffice?


You see, I did'nt interpreted ... I've just understood what Namkhai Norbu has said.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 27, 2012 5:09 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:"Dzogchen Jesus"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
st-seraphim-of-sarov.jpg
st-seraphim-of-sarov.jpg (22.28 KiB) Viewed 589 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 27, 2012 6:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:It does not support a feudal elite.
Well not a poltical feudal elite but definitely a spiritual one:
Namkai Norbu is a recognized tulku (also trulku), a reincarnate master. At birth two of Norbu's uncles, the Dzogchen masters Palyul Karma Yangsid and Shechen Rabjam believed him to be the reincarnation of their master, Adzom Drugpa Rinpoche (1841–1934). When Norbu was two years old, this was confirmed by a senior tulku of the Nyingma school.
Then when he was five years old, the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa and the Situ Rinpoche together recognized Namkhai Norbu as the mind emanation of the mindstream of another well known teacher, who was in turn the emanation of Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyel, the 17th Century Tibetan-born founder of Bhutan.
And his son is currently being groomed to take over the empire when he dies: Khyentse Yeshi Namkhai (Yeshi), a tulku recognised by the Sakya's according to your own admission and according to his website:
His Holiness the Sakya Trizin recognized Yeshi as the reincarnation of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu's maternal uncle Khyentse Rinpoche Chökyi Wangchug giving the name Jamyang Chökyi Nyima. In 2007 he went to Tibet and accepted his duty to help and support monastery in central Tibet.
So let's just cut the bs about DC not being a (Tibetan styled) institution. I mean really.
Yes, and when Someone Rinpoche and Tulku So and So gets into trouble, the putative hierarchies in Tibetan Buddhism act with complete impotence, because Someone Rinpoche and Tulku So and So are "recognized" to be some enlightened yogin, and it is all such total intolerable bullshit.
Don't speak too soon. In Greece we say: a camel never sees their own mishapen hump (only the other camels mishapen hump!)
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sun May 27, 2012 7:13 pm

Hello Greg ... can you give your sources

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 7:16 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It does not support a feudal elite.
Well not a poltical feudal elite but definitely a spiritual one...


Beleive what you will.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun May 27, 2012 7:27 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So let's just cut the bs about DC not being a (Tibetan styled) institution.


It's NOT a Tibetan-styled institution. Not like it, either - at least I know no Tibetan institutions comparable to the DC. Judging what it is on the basis of info leaflets, adverts or wiki entries will not do, btw. Join it - or talk to those who've done so - and you'll understand.

It really is an autarky, with all the (numerous) pros and (not so numerous, but by no means scant) cons autarkies entail. And no, ChNNR is not its hidden puppet-master. In no way he is.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Institutional Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 27, 2012 7:30 pm

Sönam wrote:Hello Greg ... can you give your sources
http://khyentseyeshe.com/
http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachers/namkhainorbu/
Malcolm wrote:Beleive what you will.
I believe what I can very clearly see.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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