Institutional Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 2:51 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen Community is an autarchy. It is self-governed. All practitioners are equal. We all have the same state. We are working toward the same goal. Some of us are further along, like ChNN, some of us are not, like me. But in the DC all practitioners are equal, we all have the same state.


It's great that you can idealize things like this, but I don't see that. If it was truly an autarchy and not an oligarchy then why would ChNN's son Yeshe need to be preened as the one to take over?


He decided to take responsibility. It is from his side. Actually, both Yeshe and his sister, Yuden, are ChNN's lineage holders.

But no one is in "charge" so to speak --every gar is autonomous.

I am having a hard time interpreting you curt remarks. 


Yes.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 3:42 am

Adamantine wrote:I think ChNN is great, and I think what he is doing is great. And I think it does him a disservice
to attack Buddhists, including other Dzogchen teachers in his name...


I did not do that. Your flights of rhetoric merely serve to make things less clear.

M
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 4:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I think ChNN is great, and I think what he is doing is great. And I think it does him a disservice
to attack Buddhists, including other Dzogchen teachers in his name...


I did not do that. Your flights of rhetoric merely serve to make things less clear.

M


By speaking negatively about vast groups of people
who collectively follow the lineages of Buddhas, you implicate
all of them in your dismissive rhetoric. If you don't believe
it to be an attack, it is certainly disrespectful to everyone
who has given their lives to benefit others through these lineages.

You imply most followers of the lineages of Buddhas
are sexual predators, greedy manipulators or power hungry
deadbeats. It seems especially in regards to Tibetan Buddhism
you feel everyone is complicit in a hierarchical conspiracy
of control and deceipt. You are starting to sound like the Trimondis.
Next thing you know, the Chinese govt will be sending you paychecks
just for being such a great cynic. Sorry Malcolm, I just don't agree with you
views here. I think it is enough to say you don't appreciate the Buddhist
label yourself anymore, you like a different one better. You don't need to
tear apart something that is much vaster and less homogenous then you
disgenuously pretend.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherlock » Sun May 27, 2012 4:43 am

He never said most Buddhist monks were corrupt -- he gave the analogy of not all Catholic priests being pederasts, unless you believe most Catholic priests are pederasts that just says that the monastic structure allows monks to get away with certain things that are against the Buddhadharma.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Josef » Sun May 27, 2012 4:45 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I think ChNN is great, and I think what he is doing is great. And I think it does him a disservice
to attack Buddhists, including other Dzogchen teachers in his name...


I did not do that. Your flights of rhetoric merely serve to make things less clear.

M


By speaking negatively about vast groups of people
who collectively follow the lineages of Buddhas, you implicate
all of them in your dismissive rhetoric. If you don't believe
it to be an attack, it is certainly disrespectful to everyone
who has given their lives to benefit others through these lineages.

You imply most followers of the lineages of Buddhas
are sexual predators, greedy manipulators or power hungry
deadbeats. It seems especially in regards to Tibetan Buddhism
you feel everyone is complicit in a hierarchical conspiracy
of control and deceipt. You are starting to sound like the Trimondis.
Next thing you know, the Chinese govt will be sending you paychecks
just for being such a great cynic. Sorry Malcolm, I just don't agree with you
views here. I think it is enough to say you don't appreciate the Buddhist
label yourself anymore, you like a different one better. You don't need to
tear apart something that is much vaster and less homogenous then you
disgenuously pretend.


I don't think you understand his views in the slightest.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 4:53 am

Malcolm wrote:
He decided to take responsibility. It is from his side. Actually, both Yeshe and his sister, Yuden, are ChNN's lineage holders.


Then it's exactly the same social structure as any
Nyingma dynasty where a powerful lama
enthrones one or both of his offspring to hold the lineage.

Why not one of his Western students instead?

Your theories that the DC is so radically different don't
hold up to scrutiny. It seems the more traditional "Buddhist" Chagdud Tulku
was much more modern and liberal in this regard: his Dzogchen
lineage holder and most of his tantric lineage holders he left to run
his scene were mostly if not all Westerners he trained. Not his
own Tibetan flesh-and-blood, as with ChNn
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherlock » Sun May 27, 2012 4:58 am

I think if anyone reaches SMS Level 9 he might pass it to them too. As for Yeshe, Rinpoche has had certain signs that he is fit to teach and actually did so even when he was a boy; Yuden has been uninvolved AFAIK though.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 5:04 am

Josef wrote:I don't think you understand his views in the slightest.


I'd ask you to explain them to me then Josef but since he can speak
for himself that would be silly. I am responding to what he wrote, his own
words on a public board. I am not putting words in his mouth.

At some points in his long posts on this thread I found things
I can relate to, agree with, or simply accept as a valid perspective
albeit different than my own. But at a certain point
I think the tone changed and many clumsy and simply
incorrect things were said directly or clearly implied.
That's why I am taking the time to respond.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 27, 2012 5:13 am

I am becoming a little tired of seeing you distort what Malcom says, Adamantine.
I don't know if you aren't really understanding him or if you are distorting what he says on purpose by reasons unknown to me, but nevertheless it's becoming annoying already. Can you stop? Thank you.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:13 am

Adamantine wrote:You imply most followers of the lineages of Buddhas
are sexual predators, greedy manipulators or power hungry
deadbeats. It seems especially in regards to Tibetan Buddhism
you feel everyone is complicit in a hierarchical conspiracy
of control and deceipt.


As for the first statement, that is an unreal misattribution. I never implied anything of the sort. However, since you bring it up, I have heard or met a number of Lamas here in the west that precisely fit the descriptions you have provided. I never said they were the majority. But it only takes a few bad apples...

As for the second, I guess you just have no idea. I guess I have known people involved with Tibetan religious politics a little more closely than you. It is every bit as nasty and corrupt and widespread as I have painted it.

I have seen first hand the incredibly nasty politics that infect every lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. Anyone who denies these things just has their head in the sand.

You are starting to sound like the Trimondis.


They have no idea what they are talking about. They are attacking Vajrayāna teachings out of pure malice and misunderstanding. I have not done that. What I am saying is an honest critique of a system that is badly in need of modernization and reform if it is to adapt to the modern world.

You don't need to tear apart something that is much vaster and less homogenous then you
disgenuously pretend.


You need to study more history of Tibetan Buddhism.

For example, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje told me never to go to Dharamsala because it was filled with evil people. He was beaten within an inch of his life for no reason on Losar in the mid 80's.

The good things about Tibetan culture and the Dharma do not cancel out the negative side of Tibetan religious politics. We spend a lot of time being involved in Tibetan internecine conflicts we are completely unaware of. I have heard Nyingma students proclaim "If your view of emptiness is Gelug, you will never be able to practice Dzogchen...." oblivious to the fact that both Shabkar and Jigme Lingpa favored Tsongkhapa's view of Madhyamaka. It just goes on and on. There is a certain bliss in ignorance, but I am too knowledable about controversie and issues in Tibetan Buddhism to be blind to the fact that they form a certain patterns.

The strongest critics of Tibetan culture are Tibetans themselves, people like Milarepa, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen, Drukpa Kunly, Patrul and others who were not blind to the problems of the institutional culture of Tibetan Buddhism. Of course, if they say things, they are heralded as great saints, but if I make the same observations I am accused of being a Trimondi. Honestly, what nonesense.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Virgo » Sun May 27, 2012 5:18 am

Adamantine wrote:By speaking negatively about vast groups of people
who collectively follow the lineages of Buddhas, you implicate
all of them in your dismissive rhetoric. If you don't believe
it to be an attack, it is certainly disrespectful to everyone
who has given their lives to benefit others through these lineages.

You imply most followers of the lineages of Buddhas
are sexual predators, greedy manipulators or power hungry
deadbeats. It seems especially in regards to Tibetan Buddhism
you feel everyone is complicit in a hierarchical conspiracy
of control and deceipt. You are starting to sound like the Trimondis.
Next thing you know, the Chinese govt will be sending you paychecks
just for being such a great cynic. Sorry Malcolm, I just don't agree with you
views here. I think it is enough to say you don't appreciate the Buddhist
label yourself anymore, you like a different one better. You don't need to
tear apart something that is much vaster and less homogenous then you
disgenuously pretend.

He is not tearing apart anything. You are being rather dramatic. As far as tulkus acting wrongly, there is much evidence throughout history to show that it has happened many times.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sun May 27, 2012 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 5:19 am

Sherlock wrote:He never said most Buddhist monks were corrupt -- he gave the analogy of not all Catholic priests being pederasts, unless you believe most Catholic priests are pederasts that just says that the monastic structure allows monks to get away with certain things that are against the Buddhadharma.


This sentence structure
I am not saying that there are no good monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos and tulkus,
clearly indicates that good monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos and Tulkus would be the rare exception,
not the rule. If he wanted to communicate a different idea,
he would have said something like "There are sometimes some
corrupt or insincere monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos or Tulkus" and
he would admit that among big populations of
human beings there are bound to be some bad apples,
whatever community, religion, ideology or institution they may be
associated with. I am certain as the DC continues to expand
all of the Dzogchenpas, including those in leadership positions, are not going to appear as
shiny apples all the time. Sorry to be the voice of reason.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:23 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
He decided to take responsibility. It is from his side. Actually, both Yeshe and his sister, Yuden, are ChNN's lineage holders.


Then it's exactly the same social structure as any
Nyingma dynasty where a powerful lama
enthrones one or both of his offspring to hold the lineage.

Why not one of his Western students instead?



Actually, ChNN has never publically declared anything, AFAIK. I just happen to know this is fact i.e that Yuden and Yeshe are his lineage holders. ChNN is 100 percent convinced that Yeshe is the reincarnation of his uncle.

As far as his western students go, well, there are SMS teachers. And in fact he has placed Fabio and Laura Evangelisa 100 percent in charge of Yantra Yoga. He has actually placed a number of people in places of great responsibility.

Your theories that the DC is so radically different don't
hold up to scrutiny.


Sure they do. You just don't to see it because you have an personal axe to grind with me based in your Nyingmapa conservativism.


It seems the more traditional "Buddhist" Chagdud Tulku
was much more modern and liberal in this regard: his Dzogchen
lineage holder and most of his tantric lineage holders he left to run
his scene were mostly if not all Westerners he trained. Not his
own Tibetan flesh-and-blood, as with ChNn


Different teacher, different group of students, different situation.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:25 am

Adamantine wrote:
This sentence structure
I am not saying that there are no good monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos and tulkus,
clearly indicates that good monks, nuns, lamas, khenpos and Tulkus would be the rare exception,
not the rule.


Thank you for telling me what I mean. Honestly-- the amazing thing to me is how you and others go out of your way to misrepresent what I say. I never do that you or anyone else.

It is quite dishonest -- you sound like Fox News.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Bhusuku » Sun May 27, 2012 5:26 am

Sherlock wrote:...if anyone reaches SMS Level 9...

I'm curious about that. I mean, AFAIK, until today no one, not even the oldest students who are practicing since almost 40 years passed beyond level 4 or 5, hence I'm wondering how big the chances are that anybody ever is going to reach level 9... :shrug:

BTW, is Khyentse Yeshe actually participating in the SMS program? I ask, because he doesn't show up in the lists of SMS instructors...
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:27 am

Adamantine wrote:I am not putting words in his mouth.


Yes, actually you are. You just did. And it proves that you are not reading what I am saying dispassionately. You have a grudge. Perhaps it is time you put me on ignore.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Sun May 27, 2012 5:39 am

Adamantine wrote:

None of the Tibetan Lamas I know have spent their lives living off the donations
given to monasteries. Some, like Lama Dawa Chhodak, had to work various jobs and save money
to do three month retreats and receive further teachings from their own wandering yogi Lama etc.
My heart teacher was a wandering Chodpa, spent over 30 years in retreats,
in caves and charnel grounds...often with hardly enough to feed himself.
No thought of grasping to money, just the preciousness of the Dharma.

I think ChNN is great, and I think what he is doing is great. And I think it does him a disservice
to attack Buddhists, including other Dzogchen teachers in his name, with these grandiose generalizations
you keep making



Yes, this is true of many others; Lama Kunga Thartse use to work as a dental assistant ( in Tibet he was the vice-Abbott of Ngor monastery and his father was the Finance minister of The Dalai Lama's government), HE Jetsun Kusho worked many years as a weaver in Vancouver and I believe her husband was the high school janitor, this is amazing considering they are members of the Khon royal family, HH Chetsang Rinpoche flipped burgers at MacDonalds before heading back to India to fulfill his responsibilities. HH the Dalai Lama just gave 2 day teaching sponsored by the local Geluk center in Long Beach CA. the price to attend was a request to make a $25 donation. I'm sure the cost of the venue and the extra security detail well exceeded any money brought in. Many dharma centers subsist on fledgeling budgets barely making ends meet. I just don't see all the financial corruptions.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Sun May 27, 2012 5:40 am

Malcolm wrote: But it only takes a few bad apples...



It only takes a few bad apples to what? In that case,
the entire Human race is doomed. And by extension,
the solar system.

Listen, I don't disagree with many of your critiques
of Tibetan Buddhist institutional politics. I think there
are many problems with institutions in general, not only
monastic or political ones. I am aware of many problems in Tibetan
politics both historically and currently.

However, I separate that from my experience, because my experience,
---and it has been extensive-- has been wholly positive.
I see great benefit to myself and many that I know from
the Dharma teachers and communities within that still happily maintain the
"Buddhist" label. I am not familiar with specific
instances of sectarian bashing like you qoute, though I am sure it happens all the time.
I don't see any of the problems or issues as you do: a reason
to write off Buddhism altogether. It is sad that everything
related to the Dharma does not appear as perfectly pure: but our time is one where the
afflictions of beings are supposed to be rapidly accelerating
and overwhelming. I just don't agree that any large institution
or community will be immune from this, that is utopian thinking...
Unless or until we meet in a pureland.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:40 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:I am becoming a little tired of seeing you distort what Malcom says, Adamantine.
I don't know if you aren't really understanding him or if you are distorting what he says on purpose by reasons unknown to me, but nevertheless it's becoming annoying already. Can you stop? Thank you.


He is just pissed because I am tired of the hierarchical bullshit that is so integral to Tibetan Buddhism and am open about it. He is mad because I have over the years made it absolutely clear that I disdain the tulku system as a mere money game, and so on. He is mad because I don't respect the system -- and I don't. Of course, lotuses grow in swamps, and likewise, there are mavelous persons who have come out of that system, or rather, despite it. I also don't share the sort of lame "anti-science" rhetoric he is into dereived in large part from the late Thrinly Norbu Rinpoche. He brought it up earlier in this thread and it is never far from his lips in these discussions. Now, I understand why he is into it, since TNR is one his gurus, but I don't find it TNR's arguments very compelling at all, and I am far from a "new athiest" of the Dawkins and Harris variety. Indeed, recently, Adamantine compared me with Batchelor, as if I had abandoned the notion of rebirth. So he is clearly approaching me from some ideological bent that I honestly can't relate to.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 27, 2012 5:42 am

Bhusuku wrote:
Sherlock wrote:...if anyone reaches SMS Level 9...

I'm curious about that. I mean, AFAIK, until today no one, not even the oldest students who are practicing since almost 40 years passed beyond level 4 or 5, hence I'm wondering how big the chances are that anybody ever is going to reach level 9... :shrug:

BTW, is Khyentse Yeshe actually participating in the SMS program? I ask, because he doesn't show up in the lists of SMS instructors...


I don't know.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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