Institutional Buddhism

[Sönam]

of course nothing personal ...

Sönam

[Dronma]

There are myriad other transmissions in Mahamudra lineages.....the funny thing is, they are all somewhat similar, but with the right one, at the right time, under the right circumstances, you may have "a different order of experience."

Which is not to take away from your own experience in the slightest, but merely to point out the possibilities.

Funny thing- that which is "pointed out" is beyond causes, conditions, etc., yet circumstances lead to this knowledge, this experience. Tilopa's sandal was not a part of "Institutional Buddhism," was it?

Yes, I agree. I also had completed Ngondro and other practices in Kagyu and Nyingma lineages, then I received Mahamudra. Well, my experience and understanding was mostly intellectual at that time.
Nevertheless, that does not mean that Mahamudra or the Lama who transmitted were not enough.
I am sure, that I was not "enough" at that time...

[gregkavarnos]

No, I was not aware of this. That's very interesting. I take it you mean the first Ju Mipham left the letter? Where can one find a reference for this? Thanks!

I think if you read any detailed bio of MIpham you can discover this fact. I forgot where I read this, but it was in an academic work.

Perhaps in Kapstein. In any event, as far as I am concerned there are no tulkus of Mipham who are in reality reincarnations of Mipham.

Wiki actually has a quote originally from Petit's book Mipham's Beacon of Certainty

The quotes give two accounts: one of Ju Mipham saying he will not reincarnate and one saying that he will reincarnate, but not in Tibet. Both accounts were oral directives given to his attendents.

[Malcolm]

The quotes give two accounts: one of Ju Mipham saying he will not reincarnate and one saying that he will reincarnate, but not in Tibet. Both accounts were oral directives given to his attendents.

Three accounts, Greg: two to students, one publically. So two out of three.

[Sönam]

I am vanquished.



As I have said on another thread I am not sufficiently au fait with the dynamic of debate on the forum to make a helpful contribution. Clearly there is the thing in itself and then there is something else. Which I suspect may be historical and perhaps personal.
I will therefore desist.

You do make a helpful contribution ... what is something else? Habituations and a bit of selfishness.

Sônam

[gregkavarnos]

Three accounts, Greg: two to students, one publically. So two out of three.

Yes, you are right, three accounts:

According to one account shortly before he died, Mipham told his attendant:

Nowadays, if you speak the truth, there is nobody to listen; if you speak lies everyone thinks it is true. I have never said this before: I am not an ordinary person; I am a bodhisattva who has taken rebirth through aspiration. The suffering experienced in this body is just the residue of karma; but from now on I will never again have to experience karmic obscuration. … Now, in this final age, the barbarians beyond the frontier are close to undermining the teaching. [So] there is no point whatsoever in my taking rebirth here…I have no reason to take birth in impure realms ever again.

This may be interpreted as a statement that his mindstream would have no further 'emanations' (Wylie: sprul pa (tulpa); sprul sku (tulku)). Conversely, according to another account in which he mentions the mindstream in passing and prophesies the shortly before his death to his student Khenpo Kunphel:

Now I shall not remain long in this body. After my death, in a couple of years hence, war and darkness shall cover the earth, which will have its effect even on this isolated snow land of Tibet. In thirty years time, a mad (smyo) storm of hatred will grow like a fierce black thundercloud in the land of China, and in a further decade this evil shall spill over into Tibet itself, so that Lamas, scholars, disciples and yogis will come under terrible persecution. Due to the demon-king Pehar taking power in China, darkness and terror ('bog) will come to our sacred land, with the result that violent death shall spread like a plague through every village. Then the three lords of materialism (gsum-gyi-kla-klos) and their cousins will seize power in Tibet, spreading war, famine and oppression. No one will be safe. Now, very soon, my mind-stream will be gathered up in the pure-land of Tusita, from whence many emanations [of myself] shall then come forth in future years. I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!

In the above account, shortly after the departure of Khenpo Kunphel he stated publicly, "Now, soon I shall depart. I shall not be reborn again in Tibet, therefore do not search for me. I have reason to go to Shambhala in the north."

[Sherlock]

None of them really contradict each other IMO. It could mean the Khenpo Kunphel would be reborn in the same, non-Earth, realm that Mipham Rinpoche himself would go to.

[Malcolm]

Actually, look closely. Greg: all three accounts specify that Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet.He said to Khenpo Kunphel:

I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!

[gregkavarnos]

Actually, look closely. Greg: all three accounts specify that Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet.He said to Khenpo Kunphel:

I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!

The first account says he will not take rebirth in "impure realms ever again". So it is quite clear that he will not be taking rebirth in Tibet or anywhere else on this earth (at least). In the second statement he states he will not take birth in Tibet but evrywhere else "east, west, north and south". In the third statement he seays he will "go to Shambhala in the North". So yes, in all three accounts Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet. That is very clear.

On the basis of this, one can then assume that the previous second and current third incarnation (who was recognised by Tengye Rinpoche of Lab in 1959, by Patrul Rinpoche and by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche), since they were born in Tibet, are not valid based on the words of the 1st Ju Mipham. BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

But all this merely underlines the inbred and political nature of Tibetan religious institutions. Political because the "official" Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche apparently recognises the 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje, whereas the "rogue" 3rd Ju Mipham is the father of the 17th Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje. Yet another nail in the coffin for institutional Buddhism!

[Mr. G]

Some agree and some don' t. Its up to the person to make this decission.

Yes, and this is the answer to all discussions on this forum.

[Malcolm]

...BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

No, because Bodhgaya is part of an impure realm.

What Mipham was saying in fact that as a Dzogchen practitioner he was going to take rebirth in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, but not here, on this planet or in this world system.

[Greg]

Actually, look closely. Greg: all three accounts specify that Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet.He said to Khenpo Kunphel:

I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!

The first account says he will not take rebirth in "impure realms ever again". So it is quite clear that he will not be taking rebirth in Tibet or anywhere else on this earth (at least). In the second statement he states he will not take birth in Tibet but evrywhere else "east, west, north and south". In the third statement he seays he will "go to Shambhala in the North". So yes, in all three accounts Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet. That is very clear.

On the basis of this, one can then assume that the previous second and current third incarnation (who was recognised by Tengye Rinpoche of Lab in 1959, by Patrul Rinpoche and by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche), since they were born in Tibet, are not valid based on the words of the 1st Ju Mipham. BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

But all this merely underlines the inbred and political nature of Tibetan religious institutions. Political because the "official" Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche apparently recognises the 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje, whereas the "rogue" 3rd Ju Mipham is the father of the 17th Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje. Yet another nail in the coffin for institutional Buddhism!

SMR may "officially" recognize K-OTD, but you won't see a picture of him anywhere in Shambhala, his name pointedly never comes up, and his 2010 visit to the US Shambhala did pretty much zero to support, a fact certain Karma Kagyu tulkus were extremely pissed off about. SMR has almost completely deKagyu-ized the community at this point. CTR's Shambhala terma, or a version thereof, is the only thing now on offer to new students, and outside Kagyu & Nyingma tulkus are no longer welcome for the most part.

Politics indeed. Whatever involvement I have with Tibetan Buddhism going forward will involve a minimum of hierarchical organizations, big thrones, and lamas who rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I'm beyond tired of the dynamics of it.

[gregkavarnos]

...BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

No, because Bodhgaya is part of an impure realm.

What Mipham was saying in fact that as a Dzogchen practitioner he was going to take rebirth in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, but not here, on this planet or in this world system.

Aha! So what you are saying is not that the three statements are contradictory but that they are complementary. Yes, I can see that. So you are saying that the statement: "...seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south." is figurative and not literal?

[Simon E.]

Actually, look closely. Greg: all three accounts specify that Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet.He said to Khenpo Kunphel:

I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!

The first account says he will not take rebirth in "impure realms ever again". So it is quite clear that he will not be taking rebirth in Tibet or anywhere else on this earth (at least). In the second statement he states he will not take birth in Tibet but evrywhere else "east, west, north and south". In the third statement he seays he will "go to Shambhala in the North". So yes, in all three accounts Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet. That is very clear.

On the basis of this, one can then assume that the previous second and current third incarnation (who was recognised by Tengye Rinpoche of Lab in 1959, by Patrul Rinpoche and by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche), since they were born in Tibet, are not valid based on the words of the 1st Ju Mipham. BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

But all this merely underlines the inbred and political nature of Tibetan religious institutions. Political because the "official" Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche apparently recognises the 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje, whereas the "rogue" 3rd Ju Mipham is the father of the 17th Karmapa Thaye Trinley Dorje. Yet another nail in the coffin for institutional Buddhism!

SMR may "officially" recognize K-OTD, but you won't see a picture of him anywhere in Shambhala, his name pointedly never comes up, and his 2010 visit to the US Shambhala did pretty much zero to support, a fact certain Karma Kagyu tulkus were extremely pissed off about. SMR has almost completely deKagyu-ized the community at this point. CTR's Shambhala terma, or a version thereof, is the only thing now on offer to new students, and outside Kagyu & Nyingma tulkus are no longer welcome for the most part.

Politics indeed. Whatever involvement I have with Tibetan Buddhism going forward will involve a minimum of hierarchical organizations, big thrones, and lamas who rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I'm beyond tired of the dynamics of it.

I grew weary of Kagyu politics and in particular the machinations of the Mukpo Marketing Board a long time ago.
Discovering ChNNN was extremely timely in my case.

[kirtu]

Now, very soon, my mind-stream will be gathered up in the pure-land of Tusita, from whence many emanations [of myself] shall then come forth in future years. I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!

So at least this part of this prophecy says that Mipham will send emanations. This can also be read, with the earlier part of the prophecy, as saying that an emanation would arise 50 years after 1912 in the northern regions of Uttarakuru - a mythic place but in the 4 continent system possibly a reference to northern India or possibly just a reference to the north in general.

Anyway, according to this account, emanations will occur, just not in Tibet.

Kirt

[Malcolm]

...BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

No, because Bodhgaya is part of an impure realm.

What Mipham was saying in fact that as a Dzogchen practitioner he was going to take rebirth in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, but not here, on this planet or in this world system.

Aha! So what you are saying is not that the three statements are contradictory but that they are complementary. Yes, I can see that. So you are saying that the statement: "...seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south." is figurative and not literal?

Uttarakuru, as Mipham surely conceived it, is not this planet.

[Stewart]

SMR may "officially" recognize K-OTD, but you won't see a picture of him anywhere in Shambhala, his name pointedly never comes up, and his 2010 visit to the US Shambhala did pretty much zero to support, a fact certain Karma Kagyu tulkus were extremely pissed off about. SMR has almost completely deKagyu-ized the community at this point. CTR's Shambhala terma, or a version thereof, is the only thing now on offer to new students, and outside Kagyu & Nyingma tulkus are no longer welcome for the most part.

??????! HHGK never went to the US in 2010

In 2008 SMR hosted a major part of HHGK's visit to the US....he went to the Shambhala centre in Boulder, Colorado, gave teachings and addressed Naropa students. Here's some of the photos, including SMR with HHGK and making a mandala offering to him: https://picasaweb.google.com/karmapa.fo ... erColorado

In 2011 HHGK was in the US to visit KTD and attend a Kalachakra initiation by HHDL, I think it was 8 days in total.

best wishes,

[kirtu]

Uttarakuru, as Mipham surely conceived it, is not this planet.

So in your view, Mipham is telling Khenpo Kunpel that they will reunite in a celestial or pure realm? Or perhaps an impure realm just not on the planet? I thought that traditionally all four continents were on this planet surrounding Mt. Meru?

Kirt

[Greg]

SMR may "officially" recognize K-OTD, but you won't see a picture of him anywhere in Shambhala, his name pointedly never comes up, and his 2010 visit to the US Shambhala did pretty much zero to support, a fact certain Karma Kagyu tulkus were extremely pissed off about. SMR has almost completely deKagyu-ized the community at this point. CTR's Shambhala terma, or a version thereof, is the only thing now on offer to new students, and outside Kagyu & Nyingma tulkus are no longer welcome for the most part.

??????! HHGK never went to the US in 2010

In 2008 SMR hosted a major part of HHGK's visit to the US....he went to the Shambhala centre in Boulder, Colorado, gave teachings and addressed Naropa students. Here's some of the photos, including SMR with HHGK and making a mandala offering to him: https://picasaweb.google.com/karmapa.fo ... erColorado

In 2011 HHGK was in the US to visit KTD and attend a Kalachakra initiation by HHDL, I think it was 8 days in total.

best wishes,

2011 is what I meant, my mistake. Yes, 2008 was four years ago, and I'm sure those kinds of courtesies will paid in the future too. The point is though, Shambhala is for all practical purposes no longer a Kagyu community, for better or for worse.

[Stewart]

To be fair, 2011 wasn't a 'tour' HHGK only really attended the Kalachakra and brief visits to his centres.

Anyway, I'm not too much bothered about Shambhala, can't stand all that 'Lady Mukpo' etc crap.