Institutional Buddhism

[kalden yungdrung]

quote="Mr. G"]

But Dzogchen teachings are Dzogchen teachings and they shouldn' t be changed.

The existence and discovery of new termas is change.

Tashi delek,

Termas are additional sources to the exisiting Dzogchen sources. They do not change Dzogchen at all, this we can watch if we do compare Dzogchen Teachings, out of different Traditions. Dzogchen = Dzogchen / Rainbow Body = Rainbow Body.

But i am also interested to know from you, in how far "The existence and discovery of new termas is change " ? What is then changed in case we speak of change?

Mutsog Marro
KY

"Change" in the sense that one doesn't need to go through elaborate empowerments or need intellectual study to practice Dzogchen. Or that one must do ngondro first before starting other practices. Or receiving transmission over webcast. "Change" encompasses a lot in terms of methodology over time.[/quote]

[heart]

Are you suggesting our conditions are only formed by our opinions?

/magnus

I am suggesting that people have a right to assess their own experience without being gainsayed by others.

Well, I didn't gainsay him. I asked him how he knows that Ngondro didn't make any difference for direct introduction. Seems relevant enough, since this is a discussion forum.

/magnus

[Simon E.]

Because I was there.

[heart]

Because I was there.

I am glad you were, but it doesn't answer my question.

/magnus

[Simon E.]

It answered mine.

[Sönam]

It answered mine.

For once I'm on magnus side ... because your sentence imply that you only have one side of the experience, so how can you compare?

Sönam

[Simon E.]

I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.

[Simon E.]

I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.

Incidentally I am not on anyone's side.
If it resonates fine...if it doesn't then thats ok too.

[Sherlock]

No, I was not aware of this. That's very interesting. I take it you mean the first Ju Mipham left the letter? Where can one find a reference for this? Thanks!

I think if you read any detailed bio of MIpham you can discover this fact. I forgot where I read this, but it was in an academic work.

Perhaps in Kapstein. In any event, as far as I am concerned there are no tulkus of Mipham who are in reality reincarnations of Mipham.

Wiki actually has a quote originally from Petit's book Mipham's Beacon of Certainty

[Sönam]

I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.

Nice, I've also been a student of Thrangu Rinpoché (as magnus was by the way ...) ... the point is how you've expressed it

I did the full Kagyu Ngondro.
It made no difference one way or another to the transmission of Dzogchen ..

As the discussion was if they would be a difference in having made ngondrö or not before DI, you only experimented DI with ngondrö before ... so you have not experimented DI without ngondrö, therefore you cannot confirm wether it is the same or not.
So it's just an opinion, and magnius can ask how could you know then ...

Sönam

[Simon E.]

Fine...
I have no desire at all to change anyone's view. I am merely reporting my own experience.
Please feel free to disregard it.

[Virgo]

xx

[Sönam]

Fine...
I have no desire at all to change anyone's view. I am merely reporting my own experience.
Please feel free to disregard it.

Come on ... I do believe that ngondrö is not necessary, and it's also what my master teach. But if someone says he has made ngondrö, someone may ask him how does he knows because he cannot compare only with his own experience ... it's simple logic, nothing to do with ideology

Sönam

[Simon E.]

I am not sure who you are arguing with... I am not offering logic or considered debate.
Merely describing my experience. If it resonates with others fine. If it does not then thats ok too.
I suspect that none of us ever arrives at any kind of real experience by debate.
But I could be wrong.

[conebeckham]

I was a student of Thrangu Rinpoche...still am I guess at some level. Did the Kagyu Ngondro. Recieved all the Ganges Mahamudra initiations.
Direct transmission was of a different order of experience.
Not a more advanced or matured experience of the same kind.

There are no Ganges Mahamudra Initiations, per se...though certainly there's a transmission.

There are myriad other transmissions in Mahamudra lineages.....the funny thing is, they are all somewhat similar, but with the right one, at the right time, under the right circumstances, you may have "a different order of experience."

Which is not to take away from your own experience in the slightest, but merely to point out the possibilities.

Funny thing- that which is "pointed out" is beyond causes, conditions, etc., yet circumstances lead to this knowledge, this experience. Tilopa's sandal was not a part of "Institutional Buddhism," was it?

[Simon E.]

Thank you for pointing out that there are other possibilities. I am sure you are right.

[Sönam]

I am not sure who you are arguing with... I am not offering logic or considered debate.
Merely describing my experience. If it resonates with others fine. If it does not then thats ok too.
I suspect that none of us ever arrives at any kind of real experience by debate.
But I could be wrong.

For shure we do not speak on the same line ... be happy

Sönam

[Sönam]

About logic ... if one have experimented A+B=C and not B=C, how his experience can tell him that both are equal?

Sönam

[Simon E.]

I am vanquished.



As I have said on another thread I am not sufficiently au fait with the dynamic of debate on the forum to make a helpful contribution. Clearly there is the thing in itself and then there is something else. Which I suspect may be historical and perhaps personal.
I will therefore desist.

[Sönam]

of course nothing personal ...

Sönam