Dzogchen and the Two Stages

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Paul » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:42 pm

heart wrote:The natural state never changes, or hides, or disappear, but you get caught up in thoughts and emotions.


Yes exactly. That there's a difference in path and ground/essence from the perspective of a person is something that's overlooked by some.

Unless your living experience 24/7 is that of recognising everything is an utterly unreal illusion, you're deluded and have work to do.

Mahamudra has no path, yet an undistracted mind is the path. - Gampopa
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"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:00 pm

Well there you are then. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:09 pm

Well, I think CHNNR was pretty clear about this last night. You don't need the two stages if you practice dzogchen. He said some other pretty direct things which I will not attempt to repeat here because I might distort them and anyway, they will upset a lot of people's pre-set ideas.

I was only able to listen to the teachings for a short while last night due to the Internet problems, but he was speaking to this exact issue when I did hear him.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:13 pm

He says it often in various ways . You have not misrepresented him.
Eventually someone on the forum is going to have to stop pussyfooting around with this issue and stop dealing piecemeal with it and say what that they really think...that ChNNN is wrong.
Until then the rooftop sniping will continue..
Thats what I reckon.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby conebeckham » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:19 pm

Someone's already stopped pussyfooting around and said the two stages are necessary, if I'm not mistaken.

But that person is wrong, and not merely because CNNR said so.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Simon E. » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:30 pm

I suspect that my unfamiliarity with the dynamics of the debating process on this forum means that my own contributions are unhelpful.
I will therefore step back aways.


:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby greentreee » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:50 pm

rai wrote:
Accumulating merit or using conceptual methods is like making a candle, while the Dzogchen pointing-out instruction is like lighting the candle. You must have both - the candle and a match - to illuminate the darkness. With inadequate merit, you can pehraps recognize mind essence, but the recognition quickly disappears. Like a match in the darkness, the recognition flickers and dies. You need a stable basis to carry and nourish the flame, and accumulating merit forms that basis - Tsoknyi Rinpoche "Fearless simplicity"


isn't that what happens to many students, besides those like me who did not get anything at all?



hi, i'll attempt to share some info regarding this context. this may be a bit excessive in terms of terminology and scope since this thread is specific to dzogchen and the two stages, generation and completion, not the two accumulations of merit and provisions.


Someone may ask: "You have already spoken of vitality and energy, but what about the methods and circumstances of refining the spirit? How does this match up with the four dhyanas and the eight samadhis?" The answer is as following : Vitality (ching), energy (chi), and spirit (shen) are categories of Chinese Taoism. These three are one single entity. Now, there is one point you must pay attention to. The Taoists after T'ang and Sung (dynasties) put special emphasis on the experience of cultivating realization, like the Esoteric Buddhist. Hence, they really experienced such things as ch'i channels and bright points.

However, in later generations those who study Taoism and Esoteric Buddhism have committed the mistake of inverting cause and effect. Why so? Because the special meridians and the eight channels, the three channels and the seven chakras, are spontaneous transformations that occur after meditative concentration is perfected. The Taoist adepts and Esoteric Buddhist masters recorded the course of these transformations which they had actually experienced, and these became the classics of spiritual alchemy and the other Taoist books and the esoteric teachings of Buddhism. But people in later generations subsequently took these accounts as messages from higher authorities without really understanding them. They therefore made every effort to fabricate some semblance of vitality, energy and spirit to match the records others left and fooled around with the special meridians and the eight channels. Thus in terms of genuine realization, they were finished. Therefore, the ancestral teachings were not wrong: the error lies in us. In the same way, when the Zen masters spoke of illuminating mind and seeing true nature, everyone was there seeking mind and seeking true nature, but they got it all wrong. This all happens for the same reason.

(a few paragraphs later)

In studying Buddhism and cultivating practice, you must cultivate to the point that you perfect all three buddha bodies. This is the objective of this course of lectures. It is not the average person's lip service Zen that you can find in the popular books and lecture halls. I've told you many times that Zen is not the solution of some "koan" or meditation saying. To learn Buddhism and learn the Path is a matter of genuine realization, experiential proof. You may be able to talk theory well enough, but this is useless.

(two paragraphs later)

As for the question of how to match up the four dhyanas and the eight samadhis to vitality (ching), energy (ch'i) and spirit (shen): The four dhyanas are a sequence of four states of meditative concentration. The eight samadhis are not necessarily a sequence of steps that come after the four dhyanas. In the first dhyana you can also reach "the samadhi of boundless space" (traditionally counted as the fifth samadhi and said to come after the fourth dhyana). For example, Zen master Ling Yun was enlightened when he suddenly looked at a peach blossom, and Zen master Tung-Shan described his enlightenment as "Far away, separate from me," and had forgotten his self. These are both instances of the realm of boundless space.

Everyone has had a taste of this experience to some extent: Sometimes the blind cat bumps into the dead rat and collides with it. At this moment you want to take this realm and stabilize it, but you cannot stabilize. You have the experiential realm of empty space, but you do not yet have the stabilizing power of the first dhyana, so you cannot stabilize it."


from To Realize Enlightenment: Practice of the cultivation path by Master Nan Huai-chin Translated by J.C. Cleary isbn 087728802X pages 92, 93, 96.

if this post is off, feel free to strike it from the record.
Last edited by greentreee on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Pero » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:05 pm

Norbu Rinpoche this, Norbu Rinpoche that, blah blah blah.... :roll:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:10 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus


It is not the principle of Dzogchen that you need to gather something you do not have. It is the principle of Dzogchen to recognize what you already possess.

Relatively speaking, merit ensures rebirth in higher realms, and that is it.

M


You think merit has an intention? That sounds like God to me. Merit becomes whatever we dedicate it to, that is why we dedicate it to the full enlightenment of all sentient beings.



Merit is intention, it does not have intention.

The effect of merit is to ensure rebirth in higher realms. It eventually got conflated with the pre-Buddhist notion of the major and minor marks of a mahāpurusha, which in turn became the major and minor marks of the physical body of a nirmanakāya.


Long life, happiness, a great Guru that gives you the direct introduction and the possibility to and capacity as well as the will to practice the instructions until full realization, that is merit. If you have to work all day, have no money, never see your Guru, as many of us live. This is certainly a lack of merit.

You can certainly practice anyway but it is a lot more difficult. Merit can't make us recognize the natural state but it certainly helps a lot.


Merit, being conditioned and relative, can certainly assist our relative and conditioned state, but that is all. In dzogchen, the rūpakāya is not considered a result of merit, instead it is also an expression of thugs rje.

M
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Merit, being conditioned and relative, can certainly assist our relative and conditioned state, but that it all. In dzogchen, the rūpakāya is not considered a result of merit.

M


The job having been done, peacefulness is now possible ...

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Will » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:37 pm

Malcolm: All that is necessary after having received Dzogchen direct introduction (from ChNN) is Guru Yoga.


Must one be in the physical presence, with few people around, for this introduction to be experienced?

Is every transmission from the Guru to disciple X always received loud and clear?

Or is only one transmission, fully experienced, needed?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:04 pm

Will wrote:
Malcolm: All that is necessary after having received Dzogchen direct introduction (from ChNN) is Guru Yoga.


Must one be in the physical presence, with few people around, for this introduction to be experienced?

Is every transmission from the Guru to disciple X always received loud and clear?

Or is only one transmission, fully experienced, needed?


Dzogchen language is fairly straight foward and simple, the examples clear, the implications however can take some time to sink in. Many people or few people makes no difference, as long you as are interested, participate as fully as you can and do not expect that direct introduction is a passive experience.

One direct transmission, followed by diligence in application of practice is all you need. Of course some people become transmission junkies searching for something they don't know they are "holding in their hands".
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:05 pm

If I'm not mistaken, for the Inner Rushen to work we don't have to have awareness of Rigpa of the Natural State (Instant Presence) during the entire practice (of course if we do, then all the better); but just presence or mindfulness at least.

Because the Khorde Rushens of Dzogchen are precisely for 'separating' mind from Nature of Mind. So since we have the Inner and other Rushan practices, the Two Stages are not totally necessary given this fact.

And I don't think that this disagrees with the quote from Tsoknyi Rinpoche posted earlier; it's just another approach.

So perhaps while Tsoknyi Rinpoche has his students practice the Two Stages, it doesn't mean that he would necessarily disagree with what I'm suggesting here regarding Rushens, no?
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:28 pm

In addition to what Malcolm wrote here, Will, there are also some relevant posts found here as well:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052&start=1400#p105989
.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Long life, happiness, a great Guru that gives you the direct introduction and the possibility to and capacity as well as the will to practice the instructions until full realization, that is merit. If you have to work all day, have no money, never see your Guru, as many of us live. This is certainly a lack of merit.

You can certainly practice anyway but it is a lot more difficult. Merit can't make us recognize the natural state but it certainly helps a lot.


Merit, being conditioned and relative, can certainly assist our relative and conditioned state, but that is all. In dzogchen, the rūpakāya is not considered a result of merit, instead it is also an expression of thugs rje.

M


That is all that I am saying, our relative condition depends on merit. Meeting a Guru, having confidence in that Guru, actually being present and attentive during the direct introduction, have the leisure and inspiration to do the practice as well as enough long life to realize it all depends on merit. For this reason we accumulate merit as Dzogchen practitioners, in many ways, one of them being resting in the natural state. It is certainly the best way but there is nothing wrong with also doing a mandala offering while resting in the natural state.

Then I also don't think it is possible to receive direct introduction from just any Lama, some kind of special connection is needed.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Jikan » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:54 am

Simon E. wrote:I suspect that my unfamiliarity with the dynamics of the debating process on this forum means that my own contributions are unhelpful.
I will therefore step back aways.


:namaste:


I think you're doing fine. :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Will » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:30 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:In addition to what Malcolm wrote here, Will, there are also some relevant posts found here as well:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052&start=1400#p105989
.


Thanks Lhug. I was supposing it was some sort of silent mind-to-mind transmission. Now it sounds more like a spoken teaching on a practice - yes?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:31 am

Well there are three main types of Direct Introduction: Oral, Symbolic, and Mind-to-Mind (and also Rigpa'i Tsal-Wang).

For example:

Crystal, Crystal Ball, Mirror, Peacock Feather
.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby conebeckham » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:40 am

I agree with Heart's last post, and I also think Simon's posts are valuable, FWIW.
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages

Postby heart » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:00 am

MalaBeads wrote:Well, I think CHNNR was pretty clear about this last night. You don't need the two stages if you practice dzogchen. He said some other pretty direct things which I will not attempt to repeat here because I might distort them and anyway, they will upset a lot of people's pre-set ideas.


With respect, this is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss a subject, like what ChNNR said yesterday, there is no point in mentioning it at all. If you want to discuss it, for whatever reason, just spit it out. Once you have done that you have to accept that people might disagree with it your understanding of what ChNNR is saying. This does not mean any disrespect to your Guru.

I give you an example;

"Aside from receiving blessings, gathering the accumulations, and purifying obscurations, no other technique exists for recognizing rigpa." Tulku Urgyen

If you feel shocked and disagree with this statement because your Guru says otherwise are you then disrespectful to Tulku Urgyen? Everyone one here are stuck in the presets of their own Guru as well as the those that the various experiences of their life have given them. Also most people here on the Dzogchen subforum have heard ChNNR teach, we know what he says, but not everyone experience his teachings and statements in the same way. It is just like the Dharma example how different sentient beings experience water. Despite this we try to have a respectful discussion on the subject of Dzogchen here. That means that we try to respect everyone's Gurus and not only our own. Dzogchen can be taught in many different ways and as far as I can see they are all good. I think it might be a good idea to add to the TOS that the argument "you disrespect my teacher" should not be allowed because if everyone used that argument no discussions would be possible at all here. Also unless a Guru him or herself post something on this forum we are never ever directly discussing their teaching but only our own subjective understanding of their teaching. I think it is important to do this distinction to avoid unnecessary turmoil.

Ok, that became a lot more than I intended to say and only the first part is directed at you MalaBeads.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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