Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 3:10 pm

Clarence wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Clarence wrote:So, one uses Thogal to bring the 5 elements back to the 5 lights?



When one has eliminated the tracesof afflcition and action in one's own five elements ones body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light".


And one uses Thogal to accomplish that?



or klong sde, or yang ti, etc.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Clarence » Tue May 29, 2012 3:15 pm

Thanks.

What practices one in Yangti?
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 3:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
When one has eliminated the traces of afflcition and action in one's own five elements ones body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light".

Malcom - could you talk about 'timeless awareness'. I see the term in translations so often. For me the term is key because it seems to point to an awareness that is not temporal or brain-based (if we accept the commonly held view that the brain is key to temporality). Can you comment on this? Isn't time and experience mistaken?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 3:38 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
When one has eliminated the traces of afflcition and action in one's own five elements ones body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light".

Malcom - could you talk about 'timeless awareness'. I see the term in translations so often. For me the term is key because it seems to point to an awareness that is not temporal or brain-based (if we accept the commonly held view that the brain is key to temporality). Can you comment on this? Isn't time and experience mistaken?


"Timeless awareness" is a translator's gloss of the term ye shes. You cannot understand Dzogchen without understand the terms and a bit of tibetan grammer. These are the various ways this term has been translated:

ye shes - jnana, (exalted, primordial) wisdom, (primal, transcending, original, unitary, authentic, pure, absolute, a priori, genuine, spiritual, ever-fresh, pristine) awareness, wakefulness, pristine cognition, mystic illumination, gnosis, understanding by peak experience, (intuitive, transcending, comprehensive, true) knowledge, SA mched pa'i ye shes, mnyam nyid ye shes, me long ye shes, chos dbyings ye shes, bya sgrub ye shes, sor rtog ye shes, perfect absolute divine wisdom, pristine wisdom, primordial awareness, timeless awareness

Since the brain is made of five elements, it too is made of the five wisdoms (ye shes) of vidyā. Therefore, there is no problem with awareness, etc., having a basis in the body. Actually, what we say in Dzogchen is that the wisdom of vidyā is located in the heart, the energy of vidyā is located in the brain, where it governs sense organs and cognitions.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Paul » Tue May 29, 2012 4:39 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
When one has eliminated the traces of afflcition and action in one's own five elements ones body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light".

Malcom - could you talk about 'timeless awareness'. I see the term in translations so often. For me the term is key because it seems to point to an awareness that is not temporal or brain-based (if we accept the commonly held view that the brain is key to temporality). Can you comment on this? Isn't time and experience mistaken?


Rigpa is sometimes called the fourth time or fourth moment. Time is only holding the the concept of past, present and future.

Jokyab Rinpoche states:

The state of the 'fourth part without three' means that the conditioned three changing times and the unconditioned single unchanging time, thus four, are recognised as being equality. The 'fourth part', the luminosity of natural awareness, is 'without three' - free from the thoughts of the three times.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 5:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
"Timeless awareness" is a translator's gloss of the term ye shes. You cannot understand Dzogchen without understand the terms and a bit of tibetan grammer. These are the various ways this term has been translated:

ye shes - jnana, (exalted, primordial) wisdom, (primal, transcending, original, unitary, authentic, pure, absolute, a priori, genuine, spiritual, ever-fresh, pristine) awareness, wakefulness, pristine cognition, mystic illumination, gnosis, understanding by peak experience, (intuitive, transcending, comprehensive, true) knowledge, SA mched pa'i ye shes, mnyam nyid ye shes, me long ye shes, chos dbyings ye shes, bya sgrub ye shes, sor rtog ye shes, perfect absolute divine wisdom, pristine wisdom, primordial awareness, timeless awareness

Since the brain is made of five elements, it too is made of the five wisdoms (ye shes) of vidyā. Therefore, there is no problem with awareness, etc., having a basis in the body. Actually, what we say in Dzogchen is that the wisdom of vidyā is located in the heart, the energy of vidyā is located in the brain, where it governs sense organs and cognitions.

M

Thanks Malcolm very useful. I understand the 'ever-fresh' aspect to it in the sense that it's so fresh that it seems unborn, but in what way can ye she be said to come into existence? I mean if ye shes is indeterminate or ever-fresh then in what sense are the elements 'formed'? What accounts for perceived 'duration' of the elements'?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 5:25 pm

Paul wrote:
Rigpa is sometimes called the fourth time or fourth moment. Time is only holding the the concept of past, present and future.

Jokyab Rinpoche states:

The state of the 'fourth part without three' means that the conditioned three changing times and the unconditioned single unchanging time, thus four, are recognised as being equality. The 'fourth part', the luminosity of natural awareness, is 'without three' - free from the thoughts of the three times.

So actually the 4th time is more like space than it is time - in the sense that it is unconditioned. In a way the brain just like every seeming 'thing' relies on space as a support. So space is both of the brain and not of the brain. But then in Dzogchen space is an element. O.k I think I'm getting it but more help would be good.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Sönam » Tue May 29, 2012 6:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:...
Since the brain is made of five elements, it too is made of the five wisdoms (ye shes) of vidyā. Therefore, there is no problem with awareness, etc., having a basis in the body. Actually, what we say in Dzogchen is that the wisdom of vidyā is located in the heart, the energy of vidyā is located in the brain, where it governs sense organs and cognitions.

M


As a side view, do you know if it exists a enlightened activity that would concerne the basic numerification of elements into 5 and 2. What, in this world is impacted by the relation between those primitives "5 and 2"?

Thank you for any answer,
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 7:10 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
"Timeless awareness" is a translator's gloss of the term ye shes. You cannot understand Dzogchen without understand the terms and a bit of tibetan grammer. These are the various ways this term has been translated:

ye shes - jnana, (exalted, primordial) wisdom, (primal, transcending, original, unitary, authentic, pure, absolute, a priori, genuine, spiritual, ever-fresh, pristine) awareness, wakefulness, pristine cognition, mystic illumination, gnosis, understanding by peak experience, (intuitive, transcending, comprehensive, true) knowledge, SA mched pa'i ye shes, mnyam nyid ye shes, me long ye shes, chos dbyings ye shes, bya sgrub ye shes, sor rtog ye shes, perfect absolute divine wisdom, pristine wisdom, primordial awareness, timeless awareness

Since the brain is made of five elements, it too is made of the five wisdoms (ye shes) of vidyā. Therefore, there is no problem with awareness, etc., having a basis in the body. Actually, what we say in Dzogchen is that the wisdom of vidyā is located in the heart, the energy of vidyā is located in the brain, where it governs sense organs and cognitions.

M

Thanks Malcolm very useful. I understand the 'ever-fresh' aspect to it in the sense that it's so fresh that it seems unborn, but in what way can ye she be said to come into existence? I mean if ye shes is indeterminate or ever-fresh then in what sense are the elements 'formed'? What accounts for perceived 'duration' of the elements'?


Ye nas means "has always been...", it contrasts another grammatical phrase rtag tu i.e. "...will always be".

Wisdom has no origin, it formed naturally. Hence the metaphor of the peacock feather.

The elements form from the non-recognition of of the five lights of connected with the five wisdoms.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 8:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
The elements form from the non-recognition of of the five lights of connected with the five wisdoms.


This is particularly hard to grasp since the elements described here seem to be co-emergent with individual ignorance. Or is it more that the elements are 'held in place' as a conceptual form rather than how they are originally constructed? Is it possible to elaborate on this? How would the element of water form from the non-recognition of the five lights? Hope you can help.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 8:34 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The elements form from the non-recognition of of the five lights of connected with the five wisdoms.


This is particularly hard to grasp since the elements described here seem to be co-emergent with individual ignorance. Or is it more that the elements are 'held in place' as a conceptual form rather than how they are originally constructed? Is it possible to elaborate on this? How would the element of water form from the non-recognition of the five lights? Hope you can help.


The Khandro Nyinthig states:

    Since that mind arose as automatic manifestation of six mental apprehenders, the five elements are produced. Since those are not recognized as the five wisdoms, the five elements assemble in dependence upon grasping those [five wisdoms]. Since those assemble, the body forms through the action of one [element] assisting the other. With that forms the apprehended and the apprehender.

And:
    As such, that basis, the natural reality of things, the great intrinsic energy of wisdom, the dharmakāya, was not recognized, and because of the stains of grasping to it, the elements assemble; the body forms from them, and based on that [body], one wanders in samsara until one ages and dies.

And:
    Since the five energies of wisdom are unceasing, the body forms from the five elements. Since two kāyas are integrated with the relative elements, that previous understanding of the intrinsic energy of wisdom is totally forgotten. The ultimate four elements is the dharmakāya, the relative four elements is the sambogakāya. Nirmanakāya is the lack of sameness and difference of the two kāyas.

And:
    To sum it all up, ignorant attachment to dualistic appearances assembles the energy of wisdom into the elements, and forms the body in actuality.

And:
    Energy is produced unceasingly from that wisdom. Since that energy was not recognized, that apparent and natureless radiant luminosity of wisdom arose as the empty luminosity of the five lights. [430] Within that, since this thinker of thoughts grasps the unceasing energy of wisdom, and since that five colored energy is assembled as the elements, therefore, the body, flesh, blood, warmth, breath, channels and so on are formed from that energy of wisdom. For as long as the mind and the body do not separate, the channels, vāyus, bindus, wisdoms and so on are inseparable. Since that is not recognized as such and the one is grasped as many, like the nameless becoming named, since the five wisdoms, the five afflictions, and so on are divisions in one thing, also those wishing for Buddhahood have aggregates, without contacting the meaning of this even slightly. With this everything is recognized as coming from the energy of wisdom. Since inseparability is recognized, therefore the defiled also comes from the energy of wisdom. Also that self-liberated from the mind, and as the defiled does not appear, Buddhahood is attained in the expanse of wisdom. Therefore, it is inseparable. Others hold them as different, and respond with practice.

And:
    ... after the body formed because the energy of initial vidyā was not recognized as wisdom, there is delusion because of the grasping of materiality, and wandering in samsara.

And:
    The relative material bindu is the intrinsic radiance of those five wisdoms of the originally pure dharmadhātu externally manifesting as five lights, after which, the elements are produced upon the mere traces of grasping of the mind. Further, the natural reality of that mind (that established in anyway) is space. Whether that is like this or not, the energy of that vivid luminosity arising as the diversity, that is called “vāyu”, it is called “mind”. Though luminosity is called mind, because of movement, it is called “vāyu”. When examined, it is not established in anyway. Also luminosity is not established, also movement is not established, also inseparability is not established.

    Since that is not recognized, since that energy that grasps so called “vāyu” produces heat, there is fire. For example, just as when sweat and heat is produced when a person does hard work, [fire] is produced from that grasping onto heat. When the heat of fire touches the ground, water is produced in the form of vapor. Since grasping onto that energy of wisdom arose, the outer five elements are produced, caused one by one. The five elements form matter. Since grasping onto that arose, the five elements assemble, and the body forms through the condition of the five refined parts of those [elements], one by one.

    If it is asked why, now then to begin with, the energy of wisdom is vāyu, from that is heat; from that, earth; from that, water: since each assists another, the body develops more i.e. the body actually forms out of the refined part of the five elements. That [body] is pervaded by the refined part of the five elements. The refined parts and that energy of wisdom are given the name “channels, vāyus, and bindu”. The energy of wisdom is the five elements. Since wisdom is present in them, there are five wisdoms. That is given the name material bindu. Wisdom is inseparably present within that material bindu.

And:
    Further, to begin with, the body is formed by ignorance of the wisdom of basis. The nature of wisdom in that body is the refined part of the five elements, present in the material bindu as the play of the kāyas and wisdoms. Since their luminous radiance arose as light, it is given the name “three wisdoms”.

And:
    Though the body is formed form ignorance of the basis, as soon as that is recognized, it is not beyond wisdom in the beginning, the end and in the middle.

Etc. this text just goes on and on in the same vein.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue May 29, 2012 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Paul » Tue May 29, 2012 8:47 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Paul wrote:
Rigpa is sometimes called the fourth time or fourth moment. Time is only holding the the concept of past, present and future.

Jokyab Rinpoche states:

The state of the 'fourth part without three' means that the conditioned three changing times and the unconditioned single unchanging time, thus four, are recognised as being equality. The 'fourth part', the luminosity of natural awareness, is 'without three' - free from the thoughts of the three times.

So actually the 4th time is more like space than it is time - in the sense that it is unconditioned. In a way the brain just like every seeming 'thing' relies on space as a support. So space is both of the brain and not of the brain. But then in Dzogchen space is an element. O.k I think I'm getting it but more help would be good.


'Fourth time' is the absence of dualistic grasping at the framework of past, present and future. They're just concepts - in the same way that rigpa is the absence of dualistic grasping at a framework of subject and object. And as Jokyab Rinpoche says in that quote, they're just two ways about talking about the same thing - which is the collapse of dualistic grasping.

Space is another way of talking about rigpa, as space is similar, but obviously not aware of anything. Tulku Urgyen always seemed to use that metaphor.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:02 pm

Wow thanks Malcolm!
Paul - many thanks too!
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 9:09 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Wow thanks Malcolm!
Paul - many thanks too!



As I said to understand Dzogchen all you need to understand is the five elements, and to cut grasping to solidity, the examples of illusion, how else do you think illiterate cowherds can attain rainbow body -- of course at a certain point their prajñā flowers and they understand everything without need to study.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:09 pm

Yes I see that now. You are right. I'm sorry I doubted what you said. Many many thanks.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 9:11 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Yes I see that now. You are right. I'm sorry I doubted what you said.


It makes our job as Dzogchen practitioners a lot easier. Of course if it is useful, we can study anything. But after a certain point, spending time on becoming expert in Madhyamaka, or Mahyoga, etc., is kind of a waste of time unless you are going to be a teacher. Even then, maybe not so useful. This is why I abandoned my sutra studies for Medicine. Medicine is useful, Dogchen is useful -- the rest of it is not so useful. Someday the Dzogchen tantras and texts like Khandro Nyingthig will be available and people will be able to focus on Dzogchen teachings alone.

Also, the above is just an indication, it is not enough for practice. You need to find a qualified teacher to practice the above. Fortunately, klong sde is sufficient.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:28 pm

This is an Em Ah Ho moment. I totally see where you are coming from. And you are right. Thank you for being so patient. ChNN is teaching Longde this year. O.k. I get it now. Keep up the great work Malcolm. Respect.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby heart » Tue May 29, 2012 9:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:Yes I see that now. You are right. I'm sorry I doubted what you said.


It makes our job as Dzogchen practitioners a lot easier. Of course if it is useful, we can study anything. But after a certain point, spending time on becoming expert in Madhyamaka, or Mahyoga, etc., is kind of a waste of time unless you are going to be a teacher. Even then, maybe not so useful. This is why I abandoned my sutra studies for Medicine. Medicine is useful, Dogchen is useful -- the rest of it is not so useful. Someday the Dzogchen tantras and texts like Khandro Nyingthig will be available and people will be able to focus on Dzogchen teachings alone.


So when is your translation ready then? We are waiting Malcolm :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 29, 2012 10:06 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:Yes I see that now. You are right. I'm sorry I doubted what you said.


It makes our job as Dzogchen practitioners a lot easier. Of course if it is useful, we can study anything. But after a certain point, spending time on becoming expert in Madhyamaka, or Mahyoga, etc., is kind of a waste of time unless you are going to be a teacher. Even then, maybe not so useful. This is why I abandoned my sutra studies for Medicine. Medicine is useful, Dogchen is useful -- the rest of it is not so useful. Someday the Dzogchen tantras and texts like Khandro Nyingthig will be available and people will be able to focus on Dzogchen teachings alone.


So when is your translation ready then? We are waiting Malcolm :smile:

/magnus
Thank you :namaste: . I wish aslo. I'm happy with "lamrim/madhyamaka creation of compatibility", and now very looking for the real sources :smile:
Last edited by Mariusz on Tue May 29, 2012 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bliss, Dzogchen practice and physiology

Postby Paul » Tue May 29, 2012 10:09 pm

Hi Malcolm - thanks for posting all that.

Most of that, especially sections like this:
Malcolm wrote:
    Further, to begin with, the body is formed by ignorance of the wisdom of basis. The nature of wisdom in that body is the refined part of the five elements, present in the material bindu as the play of the kāyas and wisdoms. Since their luminous radiance arose as light, it is given the name “three wisdoms”.


seems to be linked to the theory and practice of togal. Is is of any direct relevance to the practice of trekcho?
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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