Abandoning past practice commitments

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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 3:49 am

Yontan wrote:There's no benefit to "worrying" about past commitments, but from our confused pov, the importance of maintaining prior commitments is not something to poo-poo and abandon. When we commit to and engage in a higher practice it encompasses the intent of the lower practice. It reminds us of the parable of the friends who made a boat to carry them to the island of gold and then carried the boat on their heads out of respect.
If we abandon prior commitments, it robs us of the power to commit. When we commit to a higher practice, we can feed all of our resolve into it and make aspirations that all previous dharmic committments be fulfilled in this practice, and that any failing of commitment will be mitigated by our even stronger current commitment. This keeps us from being lazy and from falling into the fault of abandoning the lineage.


This is all nice, but in reality it is just so much conceptual proliferation. Commitments are connected with a path. If you decide you are not going to follow that path, then what is the point of maintaining commitments to a path one is not following? None.

M
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 4:00 am

When one receives an initiation, for example, one promises to carry out the transformation practice daily, reciting the corresponding mantra at least three or seven times. On top of this commitment, there are also many other related samaya which must be observed. But in Dzogchen the only samaya involved is to find oneself in the condition of "what is," as it is. All the rest, that is to say all the judgments and creations of the mind, all our limits, and so on, all these are false and superfluous.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 986-989). Kindle Edition.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 4:21 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:As matter of fact in Vajrayana there are specific rituals in order to give back tantric samaya to the master who gave you...
Nonesense -- such a rite does not exist.

Hey dorje-- You're making a dirty of mixture Hinayana and Vajrayana. You are correct in stating that giving back one's monastic vows has a ritualized procedure. You are incorrect on the rest: there does not a exist a ritual for giving back a tantric initiation and corresponding samaya. You have invented this latter part.


If you don't know this specific subject of vajrayana I am not very sad for you, but before telling other people: "You have invented this latter part" I would just check out how deep is my knowledge of tantrayana.

I usually speak only about things I have received as formal teaching by qualified lamas. And it was the case also for "giving back tantric samayas"
In Particular this particular aspect of vajrayana samayas, that is probably not very well known by western practitioners, was explained in details 2 years ago during a teaching of a kagyu lama that is Lama Tzultrim, a very good western yoghi who performed two retreats of 3 and 4 years for a total of 7 years under the supervision (as retrat dorje lopons) of the highest kagyu dagpos. He is extremely learned and good in advanced vajrayana practises.

But I knew it was possible giving back tantric samayas also from other lamas of other school different form kagyu such as lama geshe Lobsang Ghesce Champa Ghiatso who clarify this point many years ago.
This lama when he passed away showed the highest tantric sings of realization staying in tugdam or clear light deep meditation of Bardo of dharmata for many days after the heart stopped.

These are the first sources I can give you right away. Study both of you guys better Vajrayana and you will find evidence of that :twothumbsup:
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 25, 2012 4:28 am

I don't know about formal rituals for it, but I have seen a high Lama "remove" samayas someone held that were given by a different master... so it seems when you're dealing with beings at a certain level, anything is possible. . .
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Josef » Fri May 25, 2012 4:32 am

Its completely unnecessary to "remove" the samayas whether or not there is a ritual to do so.
Practicing Dzogchen properly keeps all samayas.
There is no need to give anything up or give anything back.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 4:38 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:These are the first sources I can give you right away. Study both of you guys better Vajrayana and you will find evidence of that :twothumbsup:


These are not sources. This is just hearsay. A source would be, for example, a clear statement from some tantra, etc. Since no such rite exists, however, you will not be able to provide such a source.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 4:38 am

The ritual the Lamas explained to me is quite short and it is performed in two ways using consacrated statues and/or the texts containing the specific tantra of the ydam of which you want give back samayas. It si genrally performed as i explained by the same lama who gave you the commitments about that special ydam.

I assume that hig realized lhama can also avoid it, but this is anyway the teaching I received from the lama I mentioned
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 4:39 am

Josef wrote:Its completely unnecessary to "remove" the samayas whether or not there is a ritual to do so.
Practicing Dzogchen properly keeps all samayas.
There is no need to give anything up or give anything back.



Yes, correct.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 4:41 am

dorje e gabbana wrote: but this is anyhway the teching I received from the lama I mentioned


Your lama is not an authority for anyone but you. Further, this has nothing to do with Dzogchen teachings.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 25, 2012 4:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
dorje e gabbana wrote:These are the first sources I can give you right away. Study both of you guys better Vajrayana and you will find evidence of that :twothumbsup:


These are not sources. This is just hearsay. A source would be, for example, a clear statement from some tantra, etc. Since no such rite exists, however, you will not be able to provide such a source.



Maybe not in a text, but Kagyu is the "ear whispered" lineage after all Malcolm! Maybe give the benefit of the doubt to this persons teachers. . . Tantras are coded and interpretable, which is why there is such an emphasis on oral instructions. . .
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 4:43 am

I don't know about formal rituals for it, but I have seen a high Lama "remove" samayas someone held that were given by a different master..

It is very bizarre that even other people, besides me, states that have seen Lama remove samaya Malcolm thinks that is true only what he knows or thinks to know about vajrayana : a wonderful example of self-referentiality.
:bow: :bow: :bow: I bow to Malcolm Padma todrenzal :zzz:
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 25, 2012 4:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Josef wrote:Its completely unnecessary to "remove" the samayas whether or not there is a ritual to do so.
Practicing Dzogchen properly keeps all samayas.
There is no need to give anything up or give anything back.



Yes, correct.


Where is the textual source for this Malcolm? Which Dzogchen tantra?
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 25, 2012 4:46 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:
I don't know about formal rituals for it, but I have seen a high Lama "remove" samayas someone held that were given by a different master..

It is very bizarre that even other people, besides me, states that have seen Lama remove samaya Malcolm thinks that is true only what he knows or thinks to know about vajrayana : a wonderful example of self-referentiality.


Well, to be fair, the Lama I am referring to is also a Dzogchen master, I don't know if that makes things blurrier. hahaha.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 4:51 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dorje e gabbana wrote:These are the first sources I can give you right away. Study both of you guys better Vajrayana and you will find evidence of that :twothumbsup:


These are not sources. This is just hearsay. A source would be, for example, a clear statement from some tantra, etc. Since no such rite exists, however, you will not be able to provide such a source.



Maybe not in a text, but Kagyu is the "ear whispered" lineage after all Malcolm! Maybe give the benefit of the doubt to this persons teachers. . . Tantras are coded and interpretable, which is why there is such an emphasis on oral instructions. . .


All Varjayāna lineages are so called snyan rgyuds.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 4:53 am

Well, to be fair, the Lama I am referring to is also a Dzogchen master, I don't know if that makes things blurrier. hahaha.

Even better ahahaahah!!! if a dzogchen lama removed some previous tantric samayas it means that the issue is more important also in dzogchen despite what Malcom thinks to know about it
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 25, 2012 4:58 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:
Well, to be fair, the Lama I am referring to is also a Dzogchen master, I don't know if that makes things blurrier. hahaha.

Even better ahahaahah!!! if a dzogchen lama removed some previous tantric samayas it means that the issue is more important also in dzogchen despite what Malcom thinks to know about it


Most Dzogchen masters these days also teach Mahayoga and Anuyoga, not Atiyoga as a stand-alone vehicle, which Malcolm seems to favor.

Although, it seems to me that ChNN also teaches a mixture of the three, as did Longchenpa, so I am not sure who the example is of the stand-alone Dzogchenpa.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 5:02 am

This is all nice, but in reality it is just so much conceptual proliferation. Commitments are connected with a path. If you decide you are not going to follow that path, then what is the point of maintaining commitments to a path one is not following? None

Malcolm Your point is very original in both vajrayana and dzogchen.
Try to explain it to dakinis and Daharmapala and Damchens when you will be in the bardo, they will probably consider your little Occam human logic even though they are everything but humans and they are not P.C. and sensitive about human rights :toilet: :oops:
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 5:08 am

Most Dzogchen masters these days also teach Mahayoga and Anuyoga, not Atiyoga as a stand-alone vehicle, which Malcolm seems to favor.

Although, it seems to me that ChNN also teaches a mixture of the three, as did Longchenpa, so I am not sure who the example is of the stand-alone Dzogchenpa.


It is true. CNNR teach a mixture of the three,
Also Bonpo use Magyud tantric cycle as a source for the tzalung they use in dzogchen practice in order to open the tza as CNNR use Yantra yoga for the same purpose
I have never met a stand along dzog chenpa and probably the only one in all the dzog chen history was Garab Dorje -Prahevajra :namaste:
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 5:10 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:
This is all nice, but in reality it is just so much conceptual proliferation. Commitments are connected with a path. If you decide you are not going to follow that path, then what is the point of maintaining commitments to a path one is not following? None

Malcolm Your point is very original in both vajrayana and dzogchen.
Try to explain it to dakinis and Daharmapala and Damchens when you will be in the bardo, they will probably consider your little Occam human logic even though they are everything but humans and they are not P.C. and sensitive about human rights :toilet: :oops:


You worry about you. I will worry about me.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 5:13 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:I have never met a stand along dzog chenpa and probably the only one in all the dzog chen history was Garab Dorje -Prahevajra :namaste:


Dzogchen practitioners can make use of all and any methods they choose.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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