Abandoning past practice commitments

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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Pero » Thu May 24, 2012 8:01 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Who said anything about erase? One's comittment is to discover one's primordial state. As long as that remains your focus, there is no problem at all.

M


To clarify my question a Lama who may or may not be a Dzogchen master gives a student an empowerment and states the samaya is to do the sadhana for the rest of one's life. The student decides to focus on discovering their primordial state instead of doing the sadhana. How does this fulfill their commitment?

Which one is your root teacher? That is the question and answer.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu May 24, 2012 8:13 pm

Pero wrote:
LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Who said anything about erase? One's comittment is to discover one's primordial state. As long as that remains your focus, there is no problem at all.

M


To clarify my question a Lama who may or may not be a Dzogchen master gives a student an empowerment and states the samaya is to do the sadhana for the rest of one's life. The student decides to focus on discovering their primordial state instead of doing the sadhana. How does this fulfill their commitment?

Which one is your root teacher? That is the question and answer.


Not really. We need precision here.

Are you saying that if a Dzogchen master becomes our Root Guru from a Dzogchen perspective we may abandon other Root Gurus from a Vajrayana perspective - as they are invalid or to be ignored as Root Gurus for anyone practising Dzogchen?
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Tarpa » Thu May 24, 2012 8:32 pm

As vajrayana pracs we are probably going to receive a lot of empowerments over the years but if you have a main yidam practice then you integrate them all into the practice of your main yidam, there's the story illustrating this about Atisha I think it was who came to Tibet and felt he wasn't needed there until he met a lama who had 3 different meditation cushions because he was practicing 4 different levels of tantra with 4 dieties on 4 cushions, Atisha(?) then said he was needed in Tibet after all and explained how one should integrate all into the practice of one.
All dieties have same essence, all sadhanas encapsulate the entire path, and all diety practice is guru yoga because the essence of the diety is the essence of dharmata and ones mind and we integrate with this state, wich is the gurus state.
Since the purpose is integration with this state then integrating with that state fulfills all samayas, wether that be integrating via Dzogchen, mahamudra, the 2 stages, or guru yoga, the medicine is the same, the colors of the pills may be different, but taking the medicine is what matters, not the container of it. To me all practices are guru yoga, even refuge, offerings etc., everything, are all directed at this state. Wich of course is free of extremes, conceptions, and labels. I don't think it matters how one recognizes and integrates with that state, or what one calls it, whatever's clever. Ones inherent state is free of method or attainment.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Pero » Thu May 24, 2012 8:49 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Pero wrote:Which one is your root teacher? That is the question and answer.


Not really. We need precision here.

Are you saying that if a Dzogchen master becomes our Root Guru from a Dzogchen perspective we may abandon other Root Gurus from a Vajrayana perspective - as they are invalid or to be ignored as Root Gurus for anyone practising Dzogchen?

They are not invalid nor do you have to abandon anything (and you shouldn't abandon your Vajra teachers in any case). But if your root teacher is a dzogchen master and you received Dzogchen teachings and understood a bit, then what is there more than that?
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 24, 2012 9:07 pm

The point I think is that there is a commitment with one Guru. He received higher teachings from a second Guru. Does that mean he no longer has the commitment with Guru #1? I don't know if Malcolm's formula is a universal truth, even if it makes logical sense. If he reconnects ever with Guru #1, who discovers that he has abandoned his commitment, and does not agree that just practicing the Dzogchen Community minimum qualifies, then the mind of Guru #1 is thus upset and displeased...and that is also breaking the vow of not upsetting the mind of the Guru. I think, in these situations, better safe than sorry. Communicate with Guru #1, ask permission for him to reduce or relieve the commitment and apologize for not being able to keep it. Explain you have discovered a practice that you feel a greater affinity for, and you hope practicing diligently in this will fulfill the same thing he had in mind with the commitments he gave you. Apologize for your lapses, and ask his blessing. I don't doubt they would be glad you came to them, and will respond accordingly, considering you are not abandoning Dharma, you just want to focus. However, I think to make assumptions without communicating is a bit sneaky, when it comes to relating to a Vajra master in regards to samaya and commitments.

Edit: in the case that Guru #1 is relatively inaccessible to personal emails or calls, as with HH the DL, then ignore my advice. In this case, email ChNN and ask him directly. That should be good enough.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu May 24, 2012 9:14 pm

Pero wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Pero wrote:Which one is your root teacher? That is the question and answer.


Not really. We need precision here.

Are you saying that if a Dzogchen master becomes our Root Guru from a Dzogchen perspective we may abandon other Root Gurus from a Vajrayana perspective - as they are invalid or to be ignored as Root Gurus for anyone practising Dzogchen?

They are not invalid nor do you have to abandon anything (and you shouldn't abandon your Vajra teachers in any case). But if your root teacher is a dzogchen master and you received Dzogchen teachings and understood a bit, then what is there more than that?


Being picky now. ;)

What more is that? Well, the practices given by the Vajrayana Root Gurus for a start. Are you implying that a Vajrayana Root Guru and commitments to them are disposable once a person enters Dzogchen?

If a person has a Vajrayana Root Guru(s) who has given them HYT empowerments and practice commitments then are you saying that a Dzogchen Root Guru and his practices can somehow represent them?

In simple terms, do you think that a Vajra Master would accept that his empowerments and role as your Root Guru may be subsumed into a Dzogchen practice from another Guru whom you also regard as a Root Guru. ?

Malcolm has advised that we don't even need to tell them that we are now using Dzogchen to fulfil the practice commitments of their HYT.

I understand the message but whilst Dzogchen masters may now discard the fuel tanks once their rocket has taken off, I know of nobody who is a Dzogchen master who is not also Buddhist or Bonpo....................so far.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Pero » Thu May 24, 2012 9:26 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:What more is that? Well, the practices given by the Vajrayana Root Gurus for a start. Are you implying that a Vajrayana Root Guru and commitments to them are disposable once a person enters Dzogchen?

If a person has a Vajrayana Root Guru(s) who has given them HYT empowerments and practice commitments then are you saying that a Dzogchen Root Guru and his practices can somehow represent them?

In simple terms, do you think that a Vajra Master would accept that his empowerments and role as your Root Guru may be subsumed into a Dzogchen practice from another Guru whom you also regard as a Root Guru. ?

Malcolm has advised that we don't even need to tell them that we are now using Dzogchen to fulfil the practice commitments of their HYT.

Not no need, but you actually shouldn't. Especially if they're not Dzogchen practitioners. They're probably not going to accept that. That's why I said it matters who is your root teacher. If a dzogchen master is your root teacher it means you got some understanding from him. Your real state is the state of the Yidam. So how could you not keep the samaya?

In any case, you can keep all your samayas through Guru Yoga. It seems to me this consideration is also in general in Nyingma, not sure for other lineages.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu May 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Pero wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:What more is that? Well, the practices given by the Vajrayana Root Gurus for a start. Are you implying that a Vajrayana Root Guru and commitments to them are disposable once a person enters Dzogchen?

If a person has a Vajrayana Root Guru(s) who has given them HYT empowerments and practice commitments then are you saying that a Dzogchen Root Guru and his practices can somehow represent them?

In simple terms, do you think that a Vajra Master would accept that his empowerments and role as your Root Guru may be subsumed into a Dzogchen practice from another Guru whom you also regard as a Root Guru. ?

Malcolm has advised that we don't even need to tell them that we are now using Dzogchen to fulfil the practice commitments of their HYT.

Not no need, but you actually shouldn't. Especially if they're not Dzogchen practitioners. They're probably not going to accept that. That's why I said it matters who is your root teacher. If a dzogchen master is your root teacher it means you got some understanding from him. Your real state is the state of the Yidam. So how could you not keep the samaya?

In any case, you can keep all your samayas through Guru Yoga. It seems to me this consideration is also in general in Nyingma, not sure for other lineages.


Do you mean the Guru Yoga of the White A(h) ?
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Pero » Thu May 24, 2012 10:02 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:Do you mean the Guru Yoga of the White A(h) ?

No, was thinking of Guru Yoga in general.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 10:11 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Who said anything about erase? One's comittment is to discover one's primordial state. As long as that remains your focus, there is no problem at all.

M


To clarify my question a Lama who may or may not be a Dzogchen master gives a student an empowerment and states the samaya is to do the sadhana for the rest of one's life. The student decides to focus on discovering their primordial state instead of doing the sadhana. How does this fulfill their commitment?


Are you being deliberately obtuse? The idea of a daily practice commitment comes from lower tantra. This is not a Dzogchen principle.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby LunaRoja » Thu May 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Are you being deliberately obtuse? The idea of a daily practice commitment comes from lower tantra. This is not a Dzogchen principle.


No I am not being deliberately obtuse. I wanted you to clarify your answer which I did not understand. The daily practice commitments usually come from HYT not the lower tantras. I know some Dzogchen Lamas that also give HYT empowerment's.
No need to be insulting. So far I am not in agreement with what you said. I will maintain my samaya with my Vajrayana gurus. You make your own choice.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 11:04 pm

LunaRoja wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Are you being deliberately obtuse? The idea of a daily practice commitment comes from lower tantra. This is not a Dzogchen principle.


No I am not being deliberately obtuse. I wanted you to clarify your answer which I did not understand. The daily practice commitments usually come from HYT not the lower tantras. I know some Dzogchen Lamas that also give HYT empowerment's.
No need to be insulting. So far I am not in agreement with what you said. I will maintain my samaya with my Vajrayana gurus. You make your own choice.


The notion of daily practice commitments comes from lower tantras. In Tibet the practice of the three outer tantas has greatly influenced the way higher yoga tantras are practiced.

Also such things as the shape of the vajra and the bell, etc. You have a mantra, you must recite this everyday. This is completely not in accordance with any principles of Dzoghen teachings. Of course they have their own principles, but there is no Dzogchen tantra anywhere that says "When you receive this empowerment, you must recite this mantra, etc...".

The question was: is a Dzogchen practitioner required to maintain previous practice comittments they might have received. The answer is you can unify all comittments into Guru Yoga, and no, you do not have to recite every mantra that came with a lifetime practice comitment because that idea is a from lower tantra, which includes maha and anu.

M
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby LunaRoja » Thu May 24, 2012 11:33 pm

Tarpa wrote:As vajrayana pracs we are probably going to receive a lot of empowerments over the years but if you have a main yidam practice then you integrate them all into the practice of your main yidam, there's the story illustrating this about Atisha I think it was who came to Tibet and felt he wasn't needed there until he met a lama who had 3 different meditation cushions because he was practicing 4 different levels of tantra with 4 dieties on 4 cushions, Atisha(?) then said he was needed in Tibet after all and explained how one should integrate all into the practice of one.
All dieties have same essence, all sadhanas encapsulate the entire path, and all diety practice is guru yoga because the essence of the diety is the essence of dharmata and ones mind and we integrate with this state, wich is the gurus state.
Since the purpose is integration with this state then integrating with that state fulfills all samayas, wether that be integrating via Dzogchen, mahamudra, the 2 stages, or guru yoga, the medicine is the same, the colors of the pills may be different, but taking the medicine is what matters, not the container of it. To me all practices are guru yoga, even refuge, offerings etc., everything, are all directed at this state. Wich of course is free of extremes, conceptions, and labels. I don't think it matters how one recognizes and integrates with that state, or what one calls it, whatever's clever. Ones inherent state is free of method or attainment.


Thank you Tarpa this is a great answer and clarifies some of my questions!
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 12:03 am

Pero wrote:(and you shouldn't abandon your Vajra teachers in any case).


Unless they prove to be total dipshits and false guides.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 1:19 am

Initiations don't come with a return policy

As matter of fact in Vajrayana there are specific rituals in order to give back tantric samaya to the master who gave you, if you feel it is too difficult for you keeping them.
In case your master is dead another Lama of the same lineage can do the ritual.
For the same reasons a monk can give back his vinaya vows and come back to the layman status. Whatever is technically a vow in hinayana, or in mahayana (for the bodisatva vows), or a tantric commitment (samaya) can be untied and you can give them back according to specific rituals, if you feel you need to do it for any personal reason

For sure it would be much better thinking about what samaya you are taking before attending a wang (initiation) and try to figureout what you are really doing and how you are really motivated in engaging a tantric practice.
Unfortunately many people go to take a tantric wang as they would go to a new age class attracted by the esotic tibetan framework, and they are not spiritually mature neither for vajrayana nor for dzog chen
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 2:32 am

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The idea of a daily practice commitment comes from lower tantra. This is not a Dzogchen principle

Many people think to be Dzogchen practitioners but the are only Dzogchenists, that are neurotic guys looking down on other people quoting like parrots high truths thinking to be garab dorje, insulting them if they are not pretending to be high practitioners like them
Daily practice samaya belongs both to lower and highest tantras But in the dzogchen the real only samaya is expressed in terms of "tun chempo" or 24hours practice of uninterrompted continuos rigpa without any distraction, that is a commitment much more stronger than the ones of daily tantric commitments, that only very few masters can really perform usually displaying jalus when they pass away, like HH Dudjom Rinpoche.

HH Dudjom rimpoche also wrote that this people acting as if they were real dzogchen practioners, looking down on people following other vajrayana vehicles tawa (view) are only arrogant funny farting people :namaste:
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 25, 2012 2:56 am

dorje e gabbana wrote: if they were real dzogchen practioners, looking down on people following other vajrayana vehicles tawa (view) are only arrogant funny farting people :namaste:


Well the precise quote is:

It is also said that if you do not meditate, you will not gain certainty: if you do, you will. But what sort of certainty? If you meditate with a strong, joyful endeavor, signs will appear showing that you have become used to staying in your nature. The fierce, tight clinging that you have to dualistically experienced phenomena will gradually loosen up, and your obsession with happiness and suffering, hopes and fears, and so on, will slowly weaken. Your devotion to the teacher and your sincere trust in his instructions will grow. After a time, your tense, dualistic attitudes will evaporate and you will get to the point where gold and pebbles, food and filth, gods and demons, virtue and nonvirtue, are all the same for you-you’ll be at a loss to choose between paradise and hell! But until you reach that point (while you are still caught in the experiences of dualistic perception), virtue and nonvirtue, buddhafields and hells, happiness and pain, actions and their results – all this is reality for you. As the Great Guru has said, "My view is higher than the sky, but my attention to actions and their results is finer than flour."

So don’t go around claiming to be some great Dzogchen meditator when in fact you are nothing but a farting lout, stinking of alcohol and rank with lust!



Here is the link to the entire teaching: http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/dudjom_counsel.htm
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby dorje e gabbana » Fri May 25, 2012 3:01 am

Adamantine, Thank you very much for having posted the precise quote. :good:
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Yontan » Fri May 25, 2012 3:39 am

There's no benefit to "worrying" about past commitments, but from our confused pov, the importance of maintaining prior commitments is not something to poo-poo and abandon. When we commit to and engage in a higher practice it encompasses the intent of the lower practice. It reminds us of the parable of the friends who made a boat to carry them to the island of gold and then carried the boat on their heads out of respect.
If we abandon prior commitments, it robs us of the power to commit. When we commit to a higher practice, we can feed all of our resolve into it and make aspirations that all previous dharmic committments be fulfilled in this practice, and that any failing of commitment will be mitigated by our even stronger current commitment. This keeps us from being lazy and from falling into the fault of abandoning the lineage.
If I can be so bold as to quote the Jesus-figure: Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
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Re: Abandoning past practice commitments

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 25, 2012 3:42 am

dorje e gabbana wrote:As matter of fact in Vajrayana there are specific rituals in order to give back tantric samaya to the master who gave you...


Nonesense -- such a rite does not exist.

For the same reasons a monk can give back his vinaya vows and come back to the layman status.


This only applies in Hīnayāna. There is no rite for returning a vow in Mahāyāna or Vajrayāna.
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