Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

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Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Huifeng » Mon May 21, 2012 4:56 am

Hi,

While I read some general books about Dzogchen years ago, finally got around to reading some more recently.
Just finished off Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State. Nice entry point, I felt.

That's it. Thanks! :smile:

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2012 4:58 am

Huifeng wrote:Hi,

While I read some general books about Dzogchen years ago, finally got around to reading some more recently.
Just finished off Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State. Nice entry point, I felt.

That's it. Thanks! :smile:

~~ Huifeng


Number two on intro books to Dzogchen. Crystal however is still requred reading.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Huifeng » Mon May 21, 2012 5:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
Huifeng wrote:Hi,

While I read some general books about Dzogchen years ago, finally got around to reading some more recently.
Just finished off Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State. Nice entry point, I felt.

That's it. Thanks! :smile:

~~ Huifeng


Number two on intro books to Dzogchen. Crystal however is still requred reading.

M


Thanks, chief, will check it out. hmmmm, unfortunately not in our library here...

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby tomamundsen » Mon May 21, 2012 7:40 am

I don't know much about Dzogchen, to be honest. But I will second The Crystal and the Way of Light. That book blew my mind.
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon May 21, 2012 8:57 am

Huifeng wrote:While I read some general books about Dzogchen years ago, finally got around to reading some more recently.
Just finished off Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State. Nice entry point, I felt.


It's a brilliant and brilliantly straightforward book.

I happen to be re-reading it right now - actually, it was Malcolm's thread which made me do it. I was wandering if what I remember as ChNNR's bluntness - his saying directly and right-in-your-face what Malcolm wrote (and what somewhat unbelievably caused so much 'controversy') - is really there. It is.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Simon E. » Mon May 21, 2012 9:12 am

Yes . It is . And it was there all along. But has been said ChNNR is Tibetan, so he was allowed to say it.
Westerners have a deep seated notion that they must divest themselves of a whole culture and adopt the trappings of another one...or else its cheating.
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby MalaBeads » Mon May 21, 2012 3:27 pm

It's true. Malcolm is not saying anything that ChNNR has not been saying all along. And if you read or re-read Self-Perfected State you can see that quite clearly. The only difference is Malcom is saying it in a way that even Westerners cannot ignore. And it makes sense that people would be up in arms because if you actually practice dzogchen, you must give up your cherished little nests, all the "isms" that you currently use to support your ego-manifestations. Those "isms" are fine as methods. Use them but don't let them define you. Use anything that helps you liberate whatever arises. But (to use a Buddhist metaphor) understand that the raft is not the shore. And that includes not defining yourself as "dzogchenpa". If you go around saying, "I am a dzogchenpa", you have understood very little. Of course, it's unavoidable, if you are learning, to not use dzogchen methods. But at a certain point, very little is needed, which, if you listen closely to CHNNR, you will hear him say. It all depends on how well you can liberate what arises. Which again, all depends on how well you can do nothing. And you will also hear ChNNR say, on occasion, "it's not so easy."

Simple, but not easy.

That's my two cents.

:smile:
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 3:44 pm

One of these days I will have to finish Crystal.

Since Dzogchen has been around for a very long time and been part of many Asian cultures, what other names might it be known under besides Ati Yoga? Also, in ancient Dzogchen were ashrams or monasteries or some sort of groupings standard or was it wandering yogis and scattered lay disciples or both or neither?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon May 21, 2012 5:03 pm

In addition to Dzogchen and Ati-Yoga, some other synonyms are:

Yungdrung Bön, Mahasandhi, Santi-Maha, Thigle-Chenpo, and perhaps a few others I don't recall or don't know about.

There are and have been monasteries where Dzogchen is/was openly taught therein, but I don't think that it is/was very common.

Dzogchen Monastery would be one, obviously.

I'm sure that many Ngagpas would be Dzogchenpas as well.

A whole village was built around Changchub Dorje based on many wanting to live near him in order to receive teachings from him.
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2012 5:18 pm

Will wrote:One of these days I will have to finish Crystal.

Since Dzogchen has been around for a very long time and been part of many Asian cultures, what other names might it be known under besides Ati Yoga? Also, in ancient Dzogchen were ashrams or monasteries or some sort of groupings standard or was it wandering yogis and scattered lay disciples or both or neither?



ChNN has asserted that it may have influenced Chan. I am sure there is a little influence of Taoism. Toaism and ancient Bon have a lot of similarities, actually.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 5:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:One of these days I will have to finish Crystal.

Since Dzogchen has been around for a very long time and been part of many Asian cultures, what other names might it be known under besides Ati Yoga? Also, in ancient Dzogchen were ashrams or monasteries or some sort of groupings standard or was it wandering yogis and scattered lay disciples or both or neither?



ChNN has asserted that it may have influenced Chan. I am sure there is a little influence of Taoism. Toaism and ancient Bon have a lot of similarities, actually.


Have you studied the Yoga-Vasishta or the earlier version Moksopaya? I think you would find them congenial to your newer openness.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 21, 2012 5:57 pm

'Crystal' ordered. Seems unavailable on Amazon UK but easy to order secondhand.

Until then I'll have to make do with Longchenpa's 'Natural Perfection' (Keith Dowman) which I picked up after a Dzogchen Rinpoche empowerment. It was OK for the train journey home, but a bit too simple to keep my attention for more than an hour or so...




Joking. ;)
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 21, 2012 6:10 pm

While on books, I'ne not read a reference to Lama Surya Das and his book and CD 'Natural Radiance' .

It is a text many will encounter due to his name being familiar but is there a reason he is not mentioned - maybe too commercial or simplistic?
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Paul » Mon May 21, 2012 6:13 pm

Can I also recommend Tulku Urgyen's two main books - As It Is 1 & 2?

They are amazing.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Jinzang » Mon May 21, 2012 6:41 pm

ChNN has asserted that it may have influenced Chan.


Chan was well established before Dzogchen got off the ground.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 7:04 pm

I guess I gave away the Crystal and Way of Light book of Namkhai Norbu.

But near the end of his commentary on The Six Vajra Verses he mentions that some old Dzogchen books use Bodhicitta as equal to Dzogchen. But he says the meaning differs from what Mahayana teaches. What does Bodhicitta mean in Dzogchen?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Caz » Mon May 21, 2012 7:10 pm

Will wrote:I guess I gave away the Crystal and Way of Light book of Namkhai Norbu.

But near the end of his commentary on The Six Vajra Verses he mentions that some old Dzogchen books use Bodhicitta as equal to Dzogchen. But he says the meaning differs from what Mahayana teaches. What does Bodhicitta mean in Dzogchen?


There are two Types of Bodhichitta in Vajrayana Conventional and Ultimate. The Ultimate is the direct realization of emptiness itself perhaps this is similar to Dzogchen I am not sure.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby conebeckham » Mon May 21, 2012 7:59 pm

First of all, the term "Bodhicitta" is a loaded one.

The "two types" of Bodhicitta you're speaking of, Caz, are actually Mahayana definitions--conventional Bodhicitta as compassion, altruistic intention, ,etc., and Ultimate Bodhicitta as "Emptiness/Clear Light," or however one explains the Ultimate. There's also a twofold classification in Mahayana of Aspirational, and "Actual," or Active, Bodhicitta.

But in Vajrayana, there is an additional level of meaning, where "Bodhicitta" is related to vital fluids, and the generation of Bliss, and the experience of Bliss/Emptiness. It relates to the Tigle, or Bindu, and there's lots of "partial" information out there on the Net about this, but it really should be heard from the mouth of one's teacher.

In Dzokchen, by contrast, "Bodhicitta" also relates to Tigle, but Tigle is understood in multiple ways, as well. In effect, as I understand it (not an expert by any means), Bodhicitta is the actual basis, the real condition, and as such, does not need to be "developed," as per Mahayana gradualist theory, or "Conserved" or "manipulated" as per Vajrayana theory. It can be understood in Dzokchen as the very nature of mind, which is really beyond "Mind." Experts, please correct my faulty explanation.
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon May 21, 2012 8:03 pm

Will wrote:...near the end of his commentary on The Six Vajra Verses he mentions that some old Dzogchen books use Bodhicitta as equal to Dzogchen. But he says the meaning differs from what Mahayana teaches. What does Bodhicitta mean in Dzogchen?
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Re: Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 8:25 pm

Thanks Lhug-pa, the second quote when saying that bodhicitta is more than compassion, yet also the original immutable state, reminds me of this old gem:

Compassion is no attribute. It is the LAW of LAWS — eternal Harmony, Alaya's SELF; a shoreless universal essence, the light of everlasting Right, and fitness of all things, the law of love eternal.
Last edited by Will on Mon May 21, 2012 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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