Dzogchen and Buddhism

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun May 20, 2012 10:24 pm

Anders Honore wrote:Buddhism has its root and centre in the liberation of the mind. If we call that 'Dzogchen', then yes. But this is all starting to risk sounding a bit too triumphalist. It's not really about whether whether the chicken or the egg came first. The point is just to be liberated, whether by means of that which we call 'Buddhism' (or 'Buddhadharma' as seems to be the currency in this thread) or 'Dzogchen'. We can say True Buddhism/Buddhadharma is liberation, or Dzogchen without quotation marks is Buddhahood or whatever, but at the end of the day a life of liberation doesn't need labels except to point others in the same direction.


With all due respect, that's not the issue anymore, as most of us here came to that consensus within the first few pages of this thread.

The issue is that many simply aren't paying attention (as Malcolm has also previously pointed out).

Not to set up anyone as the "big guy" (especially not myself), however I've noticed that many things that Pema Rigdzin, Paul, Kalden Yungdrung, and Malcolm, in particular (and maybe a couple others) have said; have either gotten ignored or taken out of context.

Specifically my basic restating of what Malcolm has already said, of which is found in my last two posts on the previous page of this thread.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sun May 20, 2012 10:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 20, 2012 10:30 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Anders Honore wrote:Buddhism has its root and centre in the liberation of the mind. If we call that 'Dzogchen', then yes. But this is all starting to risk sounding a bit too triumphalist. It's not really about whether whether the chicken or the egg came first. The point is just to be liberated, whether by means of that which we call 'Buddhism' (or 'Buddhadharma' as seems to be the currency in this thread) or 'Dzogchen'. We can say True Buddhism/Buddhadharma is liberation, or Dzogchen without quotation marks is Buddhahood or whatever, but at the end of the day a life of liberation doesn't need labels except to point others in the same direction.


With all due respect, that's not the issue anymore, as most of us here came to that consensus within the first few pages of this thread.

The issue is that many simply aren't paying attention.

Not to set up anyone as the "big guy" (especially not myself), however I've noticed that many things that Pema Rigdzin, myself, and Malcolm, in particular have said; have either gotten ignored or taken out of context.

Specifically my basic restating of what Malcolm has already said, of which is found in my last two posts on the previous page of this thread.



Tashi delek,

Reason could be that the stuff is too difficult to understand for some here which does end in private opinions mostly or sometimes. All in all very educatief or very good ! But sometimes it needs /takes some time untill the lamp is burning :D

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Anders » Sun May 20, 2012 10:36 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Anders Honore wrote:Buddhism has its root and centre in the liberation of the mind. If we call that 'Dzogchen', then yes. But this is all starting to risk sounding a bit too triumphalist. It's not really about whether whether the chicken or the egg came first. The point is just to be liberated, whether by means of that which we call 'Buddhism' (or 'Buddhadharma' as seems to be the currency in this thread) or 'Dzogchen'. We can say True Buddhism/Buddhadharma is liberation, or Dzogchen without quotation marks is Buddhahood or whatever, but at the end of the day a life of liberation doesn't need labels except to point others in the same direction.


With all due respect, that's not the issue anymore, as most of us here came to that consensus within the first few pages of this thread.

The issue is that many simply aren't paying attention (as Malcolm has also previously pointed out).

Not to set up anyone as the "big guy" (especially not myself), however I've noticed that many things that Pema Rigdzin, myself, and Malcolm, in particular have said; have either gotten ignored or taken out of context.

Specifically my basic restating of what Malcolm has already said, of which is found in my last two posts on the previous page of this thread.


I read what you are saying and I think it is a bit of a misnomer to try and say which has its roots in the other. Both 'dzogchen' and 'Buddhism' are just constructs that have their root in liberation and hopefully return adherents to said root (cf simile of the raft).

Of course, 'liberation' that is spoken of is just a construct too so dwelling too much on the matter easily becomes cyclical.
Last edited by Anders on Sun May 20, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Anders
 
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun May 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Ah, I forgot to add you to my list of "big guys" Kalden Yungdrung, so I edited my post. :D
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 20, 2012 10:43 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Ah, I forgot to add you to my list of "big guys" Kalden Yungdrung, so I edited my post. :D


Tashi delek,

Thanks for the flowers :)

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun May 20, 2012 10:57 pm

Anders Honore wrote:I read what you are saying and I think it is a bit of a misnomer to try and say which has its roots in the other. Both 'dzogchen' and 'Buddhism' are just constructs that have their root in liberation and hopefully return adherents to said root (cf simile of the raft).

Of course, 'liberation' that is spoken of is just a construct too so dwelling too much on the matter easily becomes cyclical.


No disagreements here.

All some of us in this thread are saying (correct me if wrong), is that the Dzogchen Tantras themselves say that Dzogchen is both the origin (implied by having the Buddha Shakyamuni listed as one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers) and pinnacle of the Buddha Dharma; and that Dzogchen is a Complete Path in itself without having to rely on any of the other Yanas. And that each one can 'decide' if they want to see the Dzogchen Tantras as scriptural authority, as many here apparently do the Vajrayana Tantras. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche often says; when you have recognition of the real meaning of Dzogchen, you don't "decide" anything, you discover.

And I believe that Yungdrung Bön is basically a synonym of Dzogchen. Or we could also say that the Origin of the Buddha Dharma and the Pinnacle of the Buddha Dharma are also both synonyms of Dzogchen. But as you've said, these are just words. So no need to adhere or not-adhere to any particular Religion or any particular of the Nine Yanas, in order to Receive the Direct Introduction to the 'Nature of Mind' as to achieve the Path and Result.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sun May 20, 2012 11:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 20, 2012 11:03 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Anders Honore wrote:I read what you are saying and I think it is a bit of a misnomer to try and say which has its roots in the other. Both 'dzogchen' and 'Buddhism' are just constructs that have their root in liberation and hopefully return adherents to said root (cf simile of the raft).

Of course, 'liberation' that is spoken of is just a construct too so dwelling too much on the matter easily becomes cyclical.


No disagreements here.

All some of us in this thread are saying (correct me if wrong), is that the Dzogchen Tantras themselves say that Dzogchen is both the origin (implied by having the Buddha Shakyamuni listed as one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers) and pinnacle of the Buddha Dharma; and that Dzogchen is a Complete Path in itself without having to rely on any of the other Yanas. And that each one can 'decide' if they want to see the Dzogchen Tantras as scriptural authority, as many here apparently do the Vajrayana Tantras. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche often says; when you have recognition of the real meaning of Dzogchen, you don't "decide" anything, you discover.

And I believe that Yungdrung Bön is basically a synonym of Dzogchen. Or we could also say that the Origin of the Buddha Dharma and the Pinnacle of the Buddha Dharma are also both synonyms of Dzogchen. But as you've said, these are just words. So no need to adhere or not-adhere to any particular Religion or any particular of the Nine Yanas to Receive the Direct Introduction to the 'Nature of Mind'.



Tashi delek,

Possible, within Dzogchen is everything like Buddha Dharma, pinacle etc.?

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 20, 2012 11:19 pm

Anders Honore wrote:
Buddhism has its root and centre in the liberation of the mind.


One can say the same thing about many traditions. This is not a unique feature of Buddhadharma.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12160
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Anders » Sun May 20, 2012 11:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anders Honore wrote:
Buddhism has its root and centre in the liberation of the mind.


One can say the same thing about many traditions. This is not a unique feature of Buddhadharma.


I've said as much myself a few times in this thread.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
Anders
 
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun May 20, 2012 11:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anders Honore wrote:
Buddhism has its root and centre in the liberation of the mind.


One can say the same thing about many traditions. This is not a unique feature of Buddhadharma.



Tashi delek,

Then would it be difficult to teach or let understand in a direct way Dzogchen?
Many would not like everywhere, but i mean due to the cult? For AQ it is a deed of compassion to make terror.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sun May 20, 2012 11:48 pm

In fact, many of us agree that Dzogchen includes Buddhism ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2012 12:13 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:In which year(s) were those Termas and where discovered?
Forgot to ask what was the reason for concealment / hiding?


All we can say for certain is that Chetsun Senge Wangchuk had passed on the lineage and texts for the 17 tantras and the Vima Nyinthig by 1128.

We don't really know how old he was when he met Lhungyal nor how old he was when he achieved rainbow body.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12160
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon May 21, 2012 12:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:In which year(s) were those Termas and where discovered?
Forgot to ask what was the reason for concealment / hiding?


All we can say for certain is that Chetsun Senge Wangchuk had passed on the lineage and texts for the 17 tantras and the Vima Nyinthig by 1128.

We don't really know how old he was when he met Lhungyal nor how old he was when he achieved rainbow body.



Tashi delek,

Do you eventual know the reason why these texts were hidden?


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby username » Mon May 21, 2012 1:15 am

"Demonstrating that this mode of Great Perfection is not suitable for everyone:

The persons of excellent mental faculty understand what are primordially enlightened as primordially enlightened and the familiarity of this [knowledge] enhances with firm steps. This is not a pursuit of the ordinary person. As for the ordinary person, even though he contemplates, he will have no conviction in its truth and profundity. Relating to this fact of the mind of the ordinary person not gaining conviction, having difficulty in comprehending it and accepting its truth and profundity, there is the danger of thinking that this must be the same for everyone. [One might then] denigrate the excellent persons as all liars and thereby engender thoughts of refuting them. Because of this it is being kept hidden as such it is taught as the “secret vehicle.”

Therefore until the mind understanding the truth of all phenomena as being primordially enlightened has arisen, if one engages in other’s welfare on the basis of the lower vehicles, one will not undermine the spiritual trainees. So extensive statements are found [in the scriptures] that the master must be versed in [the knowledge of] the defects of cyclic existence, the excellent qualities of nirvana, as well as in all the vehicles, and that a master who is ignorant of some aspects [of the teachings] must not hold [the position of a teacher].
" - Garland of Views by Padmasambhava

http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-ass ... 0Views.pdf
Last edited by username on Mon May 21, 2012 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2012 1:25 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:In which year(s) were those Termas and where discovered?
Forgot to ask what was the reason for concealment / hiding?


All we can say for certain is that Chetsun Senge Wangchuk had passed on the lineage and texts for the 17 tantras and the Vima Nyinthig by 1128.

We don't really know how old he was when he met Lhungyal nor how old he was when he achieved rainbow body.



Tashi delek,

Do you eventual know the reason why these texts were hidden?


Mutsog Marro
KY


I assume it was because it was met with strong opposition by court Buddhists.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12160
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2012 1:28 am

Lhug-Pa wrote: The Dzogchen Tantras may not say all of this explicitely, but what I'm saying also does not contradict them.


They do, actually.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12160
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 4:10 am

Is it Buddhism that has 'sectarian limitations' or some Buddhists?

Are all Dzogchenpas free of 'sectarian limitations'?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby zerwe » Mon May 21, 2012 4:37 am

:good:
zerwe
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:25 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2012 5:11 am

Will wrote:Is it Buddhism that has 'sectarian limitations' or some Buddhists?

Are all Dzogchenpas free of 'sectarian limitations'?


As to the first question, it is the first alternative.

As to the second, no -- there are many people who turn Dzogchen into a school.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12160
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Will » Mon May 21, 2012 5:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:Is it Buddhism that has 'sectarian limitations' or some Buddhists?

Are all Dzogchenpas free of 'sectarian limitations'?


As to the first question, it is the first alternative.

As to the second, no -- there are many people who turn Dzogchen into a school.

M


I wonder how there can be 'Buddhism' without Buddhists?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1922
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

>