Dzogchen and Buddhism

[Malcolm]

But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions. Even a stream enterer has ended three fetters: self-view, sceptical doubt and attachment to precepts and practices.

Recognizing your own nature is not the same as realization except for a select few. I assume that is what you mean with awaken.

/magnus

Yes, in my understanding based on what I have read on ChNNR's texts and Namdrol's explanation, recognising Instant Presence is not equivalent to realizing emptiness and so does not have the effect of ending the fetters.

No, then there is something to do with that instant presence. No one said, "oh now I have recognized my real nature, now I am done."

[Malcolm]

.........All that is necessary for liberation is direct introduction and subsequent diligence applying that introduction.
M

Are you really sure about this...
Do you really think this happens?

Yes, and Yes.

[Malcolm]

Yes, but we don't exactly know much about the history of the klong sde lineage before the 11th century? But we know it been a part of the klong sde lineage for almost 1000 years so that seems like something, at least to me.

/magnus

Sure we do, we know the name of each master, who attained rainbow body, etc.

When Dzin Dharmabodhi combined klong sde with the practice of Ngondzog Gyalpo, he did so because Ngondzog Gyalpo taught the klong sde tantras. Ngondzog Gyalpo is a guru sadhana from anuyoga. So we do this practice to connect with the lineage, just as we do Guru Yoga of White A to connect with Garab Dorje, but that is also from Anuyoga system, it is not Dzogchen.

N

Yes, but they are not exactly historically verified yet, even if I am sure they will be eventually. But the last 1000 years are of a historically verified lineage, that is worth something. But I think I heard ChNNR call the Guru Yoga with a White Ah a Ati Guru Yoga, no?

/magnus

There are three versions of this. What I am talking about is "A dkar bla ma'i rnal sbyor" it is a text with visualization of Garab Dorje, in the collective pratices book.

M

[pemachophel]

It's clear that one can practice Dzogchen as a stand-alone system. It is also clear that one can practice Dzogchen along with whatever practices ones chooses/one's Guru chooses for them from the other eight yanas. Most Nyingma Lamas alive today (such as Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche) and those recently deceased (such as Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, Urgyen Kusum Lingpa, etc.) make/made pretty heavy use of the other eight yanas both for Themselves and Their students. IMO, since everything depends on the Guru, the right approach or mix depends on one's Guru's instructions and example and the student's faith and devotion to their Teacher(s). The report card comes at the time of death. Since most Baby Boomer practitioners will be dying in the next 20 years, we should have ample evidence of which approaches produce the most consistent or dependable results. Till then, may all of us on this forum practice according to our Guru(s) instructions as diligently as possible and may all of us bring the path to fruition as quickly as possible.

[Malcolm]

It's clear that one can practice Dzogchen as a stand-alone system. It is also clear that one can practice Dzogchen along with whatever practices ones chooses/one's Guru chooses for them from the other eight yanas. Most Nyingma Lamas alive today (such as Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche) and those recently deceased (such as Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, Urgyen Kusum Lingpa, etc.) make/made pretty heavy use of the other eight yanas both for Themselves and Their students. IMO, since everything depends on the Guru, the right approach or mix depends on one's Guru's instructions and example and the student's faith and devotion to their Teacher(s). The report card comes at the time of death. Since most Baby Boomer practitioners will be dying in the next 20 years, we should have ample evidence of which approaches produce the most consistent or dependable results. Till then, may all of us on this forum practice according to our Guru(s) instructions as diligently as possible and may all of us bring the path to fruition as quickly as possible.

Nothing to disagree with there.

[Andrew108]

.........All that is necessary for liberation is direct introduction and subsequent diligence applying that introduction.
M

Are you really sure about this...
Do you really think this happens?

Yes, and Yes.

Malcolm I hope you are right. How many members of the Dzogchen Community do you think have achieved this liberation?

[Malcolm]

Malcolm I hope you are right. How many members of the Dzogchen Community do you think have achieved this liberation?

I don't really know where they keep those sorts of statistics. But I am very certain that many of our sibs have real knowledge of instant presence. So I do not worry so much. Some of whom in which I have personal confidence.

M

[Sönam]

...

But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions (particularly the views that contradict dharma, that is). Even a stream enterer has ended three fetters: wrong view of self, sceptical doubt and belief in rites and rituals, (sakkayaditthi, vicikiccha and silabbatta-paramasa)

Just because having been introduced and having realized it does not imply that you are stabilized in it ... total awakening is something more (stable). So you may use secondary practices. Practicing does not necessary imply to "think about it", you may just wanted to harvest the resulting state, and if you have learned to practice such or such practice and it gives result, why would'nt you use them again?
In a previous teaching (6/2011) ChNN says : "Why we learn to practice others traditions? We need to integrate all traditions, any kind of practices, but we go in essence ..."

Sönam

[Lhug-Pa]

All we have left are some reconstructions (modern Druids), some old books and folkways...

It is said that the Platonist Thomas Taylor, the artist and poet William Blake, and the author of Celtic Druids Godfrey Higgins (who were all Masons) were all members of the same Druid Order. I don't know if the Thomas Taylor mentioned in Godfrey Higgins' Anacalypsis is the same Thomas Taylor as the famous English Platonist, but I've read from another source that the latter was of that mentioned Druid Order. I wonder how 'authentic' this said Druid Order was....

I believe you mentioned elsewhere that you are Scottish, correct?

What is the main difference between the Irish, Scottish, and English in relation to the Celts?

Vedic culture is the bedrock of Indian civilization...

But didn't you debate for the "Aryan invasion theory" in the other thread about Hindu and Buddhist Deities? A 'theory' that if true, would show the Dravidian culture to be the bedrock of Indian civilization (or better said, the bedrock of the bedrock of Indian civilization). If this is true, it of course does not necessarily negate Sanskrit as a 'Primordial' or 'Sacred' language.

[Malcolm]

But didn't you debate for the "Aryan invasion theory" in the other thread about Hindu and Buddhist Deities? A 'theory' that if true, would show the Dravidian culture to be the bedrock of Indian civilization. If this is true, it of course does not necessarily negate Sanskrit as a 'Primordial' or 'Sacred' language.

Indian Civilization as we know it is based on the Vedas, first and foremost regardless of the AIT or the Hindutva theories of history.

[treehuggingoctopus]

It is said that the Platonist Thomas Taylor, the artist and poet William Blake, and the author of Celtic Druids Godfrey Higgins (who were all Masons) were all members of the same Druid Order.

Utter and total bollocks. Have you read Blake? Do you know what he means by "druids" and what his attitude to them is? Also, he wasn't a mason. Never bleeding ever.

And get real, man. No druids in the 18th or 19th century anymore. No pre-Christian cells either - the very last of them (in contemporary Latvia) had been destroyed by the end of teh 16th century. Yes it's not pretty. But it's true.

[Andrew108]

Malcolm I hope you are right. How many members of the Dzogchen Community do you think have achieved this liberation?

I don't really know where they keep those sorts of statistics. But I am very certain that many of our sibs have real knowledge of instant presence. So I do not worry so much. Some of whom in which I have personal confidence.

M

Hi Malcolm - do you mean by 'sibs' those that have studied and completed SMS level 1?

[Malcolm]

Malcolm I hope you are right. How many members of the Dzogchen Community do you think have achieved this liberation?

I don't really know where they keep those sorts of statistics. But I am very certain that many of our sibs have real knowledge of instant presence. So I do not worry so much. Some of whom in which I have personal confidence.

M

Hi Malcolm - do you mean by 'sibs' those that have studied and completed SMS level 1?

I mean those who have received transmission and applied themselves in a serious fashion.

[Andrew108]

Malcolm - thanks. Would you equate real knowledge of instant presence to something like 'stream-enterer' in Therevada? I mean in the sense of the knowledge of instant presence having with it a quality that liberates and that does not degenerate?

[heart]

It's clear that one can practice Dzogchen as a stand-alone system. It is also clear that one can practice Dzogchen along with whatever practices ones chooses/one's Guru chooses for them from the other eight yanas. Most Nyingma Lamas alive today (such as Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche) and those recently deceased (such as Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, Urgyen Kusum Lingpa, etc.) make/made pretty heavy use of the other eight yanas both for Themselves and Their students. IMO, since everything depends on the Guru, the right approach or mix depends on one's Guru's instructions and example and the student's faith and devotion to their Teacher(s). The report card comes at the time of death. Since most Baby Boomer practitioners will be dying in the next 20 years, we should have ample evidence of which approaches produce the most consistent or dependable results. Till then, may all of us on this forum practice according to our Guru(s) instructions as diligently as possible and may all of us bring the path to fruition as quickly as possible.

Yes, indeed.

/magnus

[Paul]

It is impossible to continue holding on to a view of self and at the same time be liberated.

It is impossible to hold onto a view of self or non-self and at the same time be liberated.

But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions. In other words they can be a non-Buddhist up to the point of their awakening.

You still have not grasped the principle of "not changing anything". That means you integrate with wheverever you find yourself. If you recognize your real condition while belonging to the Christian religion, you do not suddenly have to stop going to church. Maybe you like going to church. Maybe, being a Dzogchen practitioner makes a _better_ Christian.

Maybe being a Dzogchen practitioner can make Buddhists better Buddhists because Buddhists quite frankly are really grumpy and narrow minded, just like anyone else caught in the grip of grasping one-sided views. I can say this because I have more experience of Buddhists. Maybe, being a Dzogchen practitioner can make a Dzogchenpa a better Dzogchenpa.

An example of using old beleifs and views while still awakening is Bon. Bon did not throw anything out. They still teach their egg cosmology along with another more modern, "Buddhist" cosmology. They divide all that "non-Buddhist stuff" and call it all "The causal vehicle", right where the sgar thal gyur places the vehicle of gods and men i.e.:

Causal vehicles:
Gods and men
Hināyāna
Mahāyanā

Result vehicles:
kriya
upa
yoga
mahā
anu

Vehicle beyond cause and result
Ati.

M

Malcolm - I've been trying to get an understanding of your current view point and I wonder what you would make of this:

In Dzogchen a persona has to discover rigpa, which is the point where concepts collapse and wisdom arises. A person's beliefs - such as being a Nyingmapa for example - is actually just a bunch of concepts. So from the Dzogchen POV (i.e. the experience of actually resting steadily in rigpa) it's actually false and as equally false as any other belief. There's no such thing as a 'more correct dream' - there's only waking up.

In order to fully integrate everything a Dzogchen practitioner cannot pick and choose. As you mention it's the path of not changing anything - i.e. not accepting and not rejecting. So if a person is going to practice, they have to 'eat whatever's on their plate', but the corollary is that as long as they are remaining in the liberated state that their teacher pointed out they can eat whatever they like. And it actually helps deepen their practice to have a varied diet - their capacity grows and limitations dwindle.

[Blue Garuda]

It is said that the Platonist Thomas Taylor, the artist and poet William Blake, and the author of Celtic Druids Godfrey Higgins (who were all Masons) were all members of the same Druid Order.

Utter and total bollocks. Have you read Blake? Do you know what he means by "druids" and what his attitude to them is? Also, he wasn't a mason. Never bleeding ever.

And get real, man. No druids in the 18th or 19th century anymore. No pre-Christian cells either - the very last of them (in contemporary Latvia) had been destroyed by the end of teh 16th century. Yes it's not pretty. But it's true.

We must be careful what we condemn for the lack of physical written records. The Jonagnpa 'died out', or so it was thought, yet now there is a 'new Jonagpa' - but that may be a red herring here.

If a Tibetan a few hundred years ago claimed to recieve teachings from Buddhas or to have transmission from a Buddha via lucid dreaming, we respect them. If a Theosphist does so in more recent times we treat them as a charlatan and fraudulent fool.

Blake may well have been a member of an esoteric group, perhaps with a Druidic label. Dr William Price of Lllantrissant certainly was, as well as being a famous Chartist. Others in Wales I have met in more recent times claim some continuity.

I have rubbed shoulders with the AA, OTO and Esoteric Section of the TS. I have turned down membership of certain other organisations, but know enough not to dismiss such claims of continuity for Druids.

Shame I can't give details due to the equivalent of samaya, as I am wide open to calls to 'prove it'.

Tertons and Termas good, Western equivalents bad?

People in glass houses shouldn't stow thrones. LOL

Oh, there's an interesting little analysis here, claiming that Druids may have encountered Buddhist teachers. it's a stretch but here it is:
http://seanrobsville.blogspot.co.uk/200 ... n-pre.html

A Druid may also practise Dzogchen.

[Malcolm]

Malcolm - thanks. Would you equate real knowledge of instant presence to something like 'stream-enterer' in Therevada? I mean in the sense of the knowledge of instant presence having with it a quality that liberates and that does not degenerate?

I guess you could say something like that i.e. a Dzogchen stream entrant is someone who has discovered their real state.

The difference of course is that discovering your real condition does not mean you are liberated from what buddhists call "fetters" and hindus call samskaras.

N

[treehuggingoctopus]

Treehuggingoctopus, there are a number of sources claiming William Blake as either having been a founding member of, or even on the list of Grand Masters of a Druid Order. If this is not true, then as to why anyone would want to make such a thing up, I have no idea.

And William Blake had no problems with depicting Masonic themes in his artwork such as the Grand Architect of Universe and the Square & Compass. Maybe I jumped the gun on assuming he was a Mason, but I remember reading about it. If I dig up a more concrete source—aside from his evident Masonic themed artwork—I'll post it.

People make such shit up for exactly the same reasons they concoct conspiracy theories - or claim that there's an unbroken transmission of, say, Gnostic teachings in Europe. Or that Wicca is a direct descendant of the 19th century English witches - who kept the traditions that originated thousands of years ago.

Please note that the Grand Architect of the Universe, or the square & compass thing, are by no means exclusively Masonic themes.

Btw, Blake's Grand Architect - Urizen, in his present role equated with Jehovah, Gnostic Demiurge and Noboddady - is the human mental faculty that, Blake argues, happens to be our current gaoler, torturer and tyrant. Creation of the universe is for Blake our Fall - and the creator is the arrogant, self-deceiving idiot-part of the Human Totality Divine, the part that must be deposed, dissolved and reabsorbed into the horizonless kind of being he calls Eden.

Apologies for the OT.

[Malcolm]

In Dzogchen a persona has to discover rigpa, which is the point where concepts collapse and wisdom arises. A person's beliefs - such as being a Nyingmapa for example - is actually just a bunch of concepts. So from the Dzogchen POV (i.e. the experience of actually resting steadily in rigpa) it's actually false and as equally false as any other belief. There's no such thing as a 'more correct dream' - there's only waking up.

Check.

In order to fully integrate everything a Dzogchen practitioner cannot pick and choose. As you mention it's the path of not changing anything - i.e. not accepting and not rejecting. So if a person is going to practice, they have to 'eat whatever's on their plate', but the corollary is that as long as they are remaining in the liberated state that their teacher pointed out they can eat whatever they like. And it actually helps deepen their practice to have a varied diet - their capacity grows and limitations dwindle.

Check.