Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 19, 2012 3:05 pm

Great posts about the Dzogchen Community Heart and Username.

Tarpa, one of the Siddhis attained by practicing Yantra Yoga as enumerated in Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's non-restricted Yantra Yoga book, is being more able to attract Dakinis. ;)

Sally, thanks for the explanation. When I was more of an aspiring Gnostic student, I didn't get too far in my Hebrew studies; but can name most if not all the letters without having to look them up, and have a general idea of each of their meanings, and some of their numerical and Kabbalistic attributes. Yea I know it's pretty off-topic. Was responding to Karma Dorje's mentioning of Kabbalah in relation to Shunyata, and the Ten Mahavidyas, and saw your post from a few pages back of which Hillel reminded me of Lucifer which ties into the Ain Soph Aur, etc. Anyway, I think anyone of any Esoteric tradition (Sufism, Yoruba, Kabbalah, Shaivism, Taoist Alchemy, etc.) would at least appreciate and be fascinated by Dzogchen if they received a good explanation of it. And I think that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has some knowledge of many of these said various Esoteric systems and appreciates them, just as H.H. the Dalai Lama does Theosophy.

Buddhist, you don't have practice with Anuyoga Deities or do Guardian Practices in Dzogchen, although it can help to do so.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 3:10 pm

Tarpa wrote:Does receiving Dzogchen related hyt empowerments ( protectors ) with ati yoga version sadhanas, yangzab lineage / Traga Rinpoche, count as direct introduction or entry on Dzogchen path ?


Sure. Yangzab is an Anuyoga system.Traga Rinpoche is a Dzogchen master.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat May 19, 2012 3:35 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:you don't have practice with Anuyoga Deities or do Guardian Practices in Dzogchen, although it can help to do so.


Depends on what you mean with that but Ekajati is a Dzogchen protector and there is a Dzogchen Tantra on her practice, can't recall the name. Similarly I have been told some other deities appear in the Dzogchen Tantra's as practices. The empowerment of the Dzogchen Longde is for a deity and the Longde contains also lot of deity practice. Also Garab Dorje received all the Dzogchen teachings from Vajrasattva, who is a deity. So it is not so clean cut as I used to think. Of course the main point of all Dzogchen teachings is the realization of the natural state, but at least I think that could be said about Buddhism or rather the Dharma as a whole.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 19, 2012 3:59 pm

Sure, I don't disagree with you there Magnus.

It just depends on the capacity of the practitioner and their circumstances.

As has been said by others, if we keep our Samaya (which is fulfilled by Guru Yoga), the Guardians will do their part. Will the Guardians help even more if we do Guardian practices? I don't know. Maybe it depends on our capacity for Contemplation through the practice of Guru Yoga.

The point is that we keep our Samaya and understand the Three Statements of Garab Dorje.

Of course if we're just not getting it, then adjustments should be made for whatever it takes to have that Knowledge.

Maybe someone feels they need to meditate on the Four Thoughts and the Four Immeasurables, and do Tantra Ngondro, and Generation and Completion Stage. That's fine. However, others may feel for example that Guru Yoga, Semde Shamatha, Song of the Vajra, Yantra Yoga, and Rushens, are all they need to get started on the Path of Self-Liberation.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Acchantika » Sat May 19, 2012 4:01 pm

I have really enjoyed reading this thread over the last few days. I do think that a lot of disagreements that have occurred thus far could be avoided if people were perhaps more cautious in assuming shared definitions of terms, for what it is worth. :smile:
...
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Sat May 19, 2012 4:04 pm

heart wrote:...
Of course the main point of all Dzogchen teachings is the realization of the natural state, but at least I think that could be said about Buddhism or rather the Dharma as a whole.

/magnus


But for Dzogchen it is realized! ... realization of the natural state is the consequence of direct introduction! the rest is (maybe rare, great, helpfull and so on ...) secondary practices, they are not necessary for the Dzogchen practice.

There is no contradiction between what we both are saying ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 4:07 pm

Tarpa wrote:I have one question, do you think liberation is possible in other religions without the teaching of dependent origination ?


I understand why you ask this because it is strong statement I have made in the past.

But the view of Dzogchen is not dependent origination at all. Dependent origination, in Dzogchen, is how we describe the arising of afflicted phenomena in Dzogchen, the pheomena that manifest out of non-recogition of our real nature.


I understand a direct experience surpasses any need for intellectual study of anything, like reading a map after you've already arrived at a destination and since our real nature is inherent than of course it would be accessible to anybody able to recognize it, wich is a wonderful thing of course, but do you think study of dependent origination and the wisdom teachings of Buddhism necessary for liberation ?


As I said in the first post in this thread, all that I think is necessary for studying Dzogchen is understanding the five elements and three gates and having a good motivation. All that is necessary for liberation is direct introduction and subsequent diligence applying that introduction. Of course one can study anything and it can be helpful and useful to broadening one's understanding, so if you read my first post, you will see what I said. If you are going to be a teacher, you have to study a little more broadly in order to relate to more diverse capacities.

Are you saying all other religions or whatever people want to call them can be looked at as stepping stones to an ultimate experience of ones real nature ( wich of course there is no label there saying " welcome to Buddhism you've made it " or anything like that ) , or looked at like part of the staircase of the gradual teachings, is what " the paths of gods and men mean ? It's okay they don't have understanding of dependent origination for now they are starting off in a good direction ? But wouldn't eternalist and solid self / soul / reality views etc. be a problem ?


If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, it does not matter much what your intellectual view is.

For example, no matter whether you are a cittamatrin or a madhyamaka you can still attain liberation if you follow the the sadhana method. Why? Because the sadhana method in Vajrayāna recapitulates the experiential introduction in the third and fourth empowerments. The "view" in Varjayāna in general is not a result of intellectual analysis, it is a result of introduction and the experiential cultivation of introduction. If it does not matter whether you are a cittamatrin or a madhyamaka when it comes to practicing sadhana -- because you will still attain liberation either way. Your post-meditation view will not interfere with your sadhana practice. Since cittamtra is a realist viewand is does not intefere with your liberation when practicing a vajrayāna sadhana, why should other realist views interfere with your liberation?

Dzogchen is based completely on direct introduction. As long as you are willing to employ its methods, then what does it matter if you come to Dzogchen practice beleiving in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc.? What does it matter if you believe in Para-atma? What does it matter if you believe in tathāgatagarbha which is described in so many tathāgatagarbha texts as a self (though, perish the thought, not the SAME self as advocated by the Hindus -- actually, if someone is reallty, really honest with themselvs , they will admit it is impossible to differentiate the sat cit ananda of the Hindus from the atman, sukha, nitya, śuddha of the uttaratantra)? The Dzogchen view is not a view, it is the experience of a moment of uncontrived awareness aka instant presence (an Indian moment i.e. roughly about 5 miliseconds) based on direct introduction.

As long as you are practicing Ati guru yoga etc., and doing your best, none of your previous conditioning, whether non-Buddhist or Buddhist will interfere with your liberation. Why? Because "liberation" is solely based on recognizing your real condition. It is not based on belief philosophy, intellectual analysis, conditioned merit, or anything else. It is not based on having a view of emptiness, dependent origination, buddhanature, etc. These views are just as relative as views of self, a creator, and so on.

I think I'd like to finally start getting into dzogchen, I have read a bunch of books about dzogchen but no actual dzogchen books per se, texts, I have been putting it off for years because I found it a bit confusing while studying mahamudra after experienced practitioners such as yourself were saying it is not the same thing while all the intro books about buddhism were saying it was, then I got the sense that maybe trekcho and mahamudra are more or less same but togal is something completely different than anything elsewhere, and terms and definitions seemed to be different in both systems so I didn't want to confuse myself and decided to study one or the other and picked mahamudra. Togal is mainly what I'm interested in learning about.


Well, start with klong sde. Listen to ChNN retreat coming up, it is closed, so you have to get your membership and the login right away. starts very soon, like thursday or something.

I think I'll join the dzogchen community.


Good call.

I'm a Buddhist and will always cherish it...


You don't have to change anything to be a Dzogchen practitioner. If you are a Catholic, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner and you can still partake of the Sacaraments of the church as much as you like, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Wiccan, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner. If you want dance naked under the moon during during a sabbat, there is no problem, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a religious Jew, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner, you can still observe the sabbath, there is no problem, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Taoist, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner, when you practice Taoist rites and so on, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Buddhist, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Dzogchen practitioners because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner, when you practice meditation, sadhana, etc., just do so with presence and awareness.

If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, and all of sudden you don't feel very much like you need the label "Catholic, Wiccan, Jew, Taoist, Buddhist" there is also no problem. Just continue to practice Dzogchen and be present and aware.

Some people think I have abandoned Dharma. It is not true. My relationship to Dharma and my understanding of it has changed. As I mentioned before all Dharma paths, whether Buddhist or non-Buddhist, have the same motivation, the peace and happiness that comes from freedom.

I just don't feel the need to self-identify as a "buddhist" anymore. I am personally finding the label "buddhist" to be a limitation for me. I am not suggesting to anyone else that they need to change anything.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby username » Sat May 19, 2012 4:10 pm

In case of ChNNR's Dzogchen terma and Longsal cycles and Upadeshas and other teachings his followers are practicing teachings received from or cycles of practice of Mandarava, Goma devi, Padmasambhava, Garab Dorje, Changchub Dorje Lingpa, Vajrasatva, etc. and the Dakini script of Vajrapani terma which materialized in his hand when he was a child that his famous terton Khyentse uncle was expecting who himself extracted magical terma including a glowing orb from a high rock face in front of crowds. All regular vajrayana characters.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 4:16 pm

heart wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:you don't have practice with Anuyoga Deities or do Guardian Practices in Dzogchen, although it can help to do so.


Depends on what you mean with that but Ekajati is a Dzogchen protector and there is a Dzogchen Tantra on her practice, can't recall the name. Similarly I have been told some other deities appear in the Dzogchen Tantra's as practices. The empowerment of the Dzogchen Longde is for a deity and the Longde contains also lot of deity practice. Also Garab Dorje received all the Dzogchen teachings from Vajrasattva, who is a deity. So it is not so clean cut as I used to think. Of course the main point of all Dzogchen teachings is the realization of the natural state, but at least I think that could be said about Buddhism or rather the Dharma as a whole.

/magnus


The addition of the empowerment for the Anuyoga style Guru Yoga of the primordial master Ngondzog Gyalpo was tacked onto the klong sde lineage in the 11th century by Dzin Dharmabodhi. Before that, there was no specific empowerment of klong sde.

Vajrasattva is one of Garab Dorje's names. For example, if you read the Rigpa Rangshar tantra, the master who teaches that Tantra is Zhonnu Pawo Tobden -- during the course the tantra, he is called Mahavajradhara, Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva andmany other names and title. Any fully awakwned person is the manifestation of all three kāyas.

Garab Dorje's Speech is Vajrasattva. His Mind is Samantabhadra.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat May 19, 2012 4:18 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Sure, I don't disagree with you there Magnus.

It just depends on the capacity of the practitioner and their circumstances.

As has been said by others, if we keep our Samaya (which is fulfilled by Guru Yoga), the Guardians will do their part. Will the Guardians help even more if we do Guardian practices? I don't know. Maybe it depends on our capacity for Contemplation through the practice of Guru Yoga.

The point is that we keep our Samaya and understand the Three Statements of Garab Dorje.

Of course if we're just not getting it, then adjustments should be made for whatever it takes to have that Knowledge.

Maybe someone feels they need to meditate on the Four Thoughts and the Four Immeasurables, and do Tantra Ngondro, and Generation and Completion Stage. That's fine. However, others may feel for example that Guru Yoga, Semde Shamatha, Song of the Vajra, Yantra Yoga, and Rushens, are all they need to get started on the Path of Self-Liberation.


I come to point in my life where I stopped having opinions about what other people practice, it is between you and your Guru what you need to get started. But four thoughts, four immeasurables and generation and completion are all a part of the SMS training and I heard there is Ngondro also later on. I guess ChNNR considers them helpful even if secondary.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat May 19, 2012 4:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:you don't have practice with Anuyoga Deities or do Guardian Practices in Dzogchen, although it can help to do so.


Depends on what you mean with that but Ekajati is a Dzogchen protector and there is a Dzogchen Tantra on her practice, can't recall the name. Similarly I have been told some other deities appear in the Dzogchen Tantra's as practices. The empowerment of the Dzogchen Longde is for a deity and the Longde contains also lot of deity practice. Also Garab Dorje received all the Dzogchen teachings from Vajrasattva, who is a deity. So it is not so clean cut as I used to think. Of course the main point of all Dzogchen teachings is the realization of the natural state, but at least I think that could be said about Buddhism or rather the Dharma as a whole.

/magnus


The addition of the empowerment for the Anuyoga style Guru Yoga of the primordial master Ngondzog Gyalpo was tacked onto the klong sde lineage in the 11th century by Dzin Dharmabodhi. Before that, there was no specific empowerment of klong sde.


Yes, but we don't exactly know much about the history of the klong sde lineage before the 11th century? But we know it been a part of the klong sde lineage for almost 1000 years so that seems like something, at least to me.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 4:29 pm

heart wrote:
Yes, but we don't exactly know much about the history of the klong sde lineage before the 11th century? But we know it been a part of the klong sde lineage for almost 1000 years so that seems like something, at least to me.

/magnus



Sure we do, we know the name of each master, who attained rainbow body, etc.

When Dzin Dharmabodhi combined klong sde with the practice of Ngondzog Gyalpo, he did so because Ngondzog Gyalpo taught the klong sde tantras. Ngondzog Gyalpo is a guru sadhana from anuyoga. So we do this practice to connect with the lineage, just as we do Guru Yoga of White A to connect with Garab Dorje, but that is also from Anuyoga system, it is not Dzogchen.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby xabir » Sat May 19, 2012 4:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:What does it matter if you believe in Para-atma? What does it matter if you believe in tathāgatagarbha which is described in so many tathāgatagarbha texts as a self (though, perish the thought, not the SAME self as advocated by the Hindus -- actually, if someone is reallty, really honest with themselvs , they will admit it is impossible to differentiate the sat cit ananda of the Hindus from the atman, sukha, nitya, śuddha of the uttaratantra)? The Dzogchen view is not a view, it is the experience of a moment of uncontrived awareness aka instant presence (an Indian moment i.e. roughly about 5 miliseconds) based on direct introduction.
I do agree the Buddhist tathagatagarbha teaching of sukha, nitya, śuddha does not sound much different from Hindu sat chit ananda. And lots of Mahayana teachers (not all) have taught a Buddhist version of atman-brahman as a result.
As long as you are practicing Ati guru yoga etc., and doing your best, none of your previous conditioning, whether non-Buddhist or Buddhist will interfere with your liberation. Why? Because "liberation" is solely based on recognizing your real condition. It is not based on belief philosophy, intellectual analysis, conditioned merit, or anything else. It is not based on having a view of emptiness, dependent origination, buddhanature, etc. These views are just as relative as views of self, a creator, and so on.
But realizing your real nature ends self-view, it ends your previous false conditionings, yes? It is impossible to continue holding on to a view of self and at the same time be liberated.

A non-Buddhist can attain liberation, sure I have no problems with that. In the Pali suttas, lots of non-buddhists awaken or even instantaneously liberate through listening to the Buddha alone. Then, they took refuge or seek ordination, but only after their own awakening. So what you are saying is nothing new.

But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions (particularly the views that contradict dharma, that is). Even a stream enterer has ended three fetters: wrong view of self, sceptical doubt and belief in rites and rituals, (sakkayaditthi, vicikiccha and silabbatta-paramasa)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Sat May 19, 2012 4:37 pm

A Buddhist can be a Buddhist up until their awakening too. Or not.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat May 19, 2012 4:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Yes, but we don't exactly know much about the history of the klong sde lineage before the 11th century? But we know it been a part of the klong sde lineage for almost 1000 years so that seems like something, at least to me.

/magnus



Sure we do, we know the name of each master, who attained rainbow body, etc.

When Dzin Dharmabodhi combined klong sde with the practice of Ngondzog Gyalpo, he did so because Ngondzog Gyalpo taught the klong sde tantras. Ngondzog Gyalpo is a guru sadhana from anuyoga. So we do this practice to connect with the lineage, just as we do Guru Yoga of White A to connect with Garab Dorje, but that is also from Anuyoga system, it is not Dzogchen.

N


Yes, but they are not exactly historically verified yet, even if I am sure they will be eventually. But the last 1000 years are of a historically verified lineage, that is worth something. But I think I heard ChNNR call the Guru Yoga with a White Ah a Ati Guru Yoga, no?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Sat May 19, 2012 4:44 pm

xabir wrote:But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions. Even a stream enterer has ended three fetters: self-view, sceptical doubt and attachment to precepts and practices.


Recognizing your own nature is not the same as realization except for a select few. I assume that is what you mean with awaken.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby xabir » Sat May 19, 2012 4:48 pm

heart wrote:
xabir wrote:But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions. Even a stream enterer has ended three fetters: self-view, sceptical doubt and attachment to precepts and practices.


Recognizing your own nature is not the same as realization except for a select few. I assume that is what you mean with awaken.

/magnus
Yes, in my understanding based on what I have read on ChNNR's texts and Namdrol's explanation, recognising Instant Presence is not equivalent to realizing emptiness and so does not have the effect of ending the fetters.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Malcolm wrote: .........All that is necessary for liberation is direct introduction and subsequent diligence applying that introduction.
M

Are you really sure about this? I don't want to be argumentative but I think you are making an error here. Which Dzogchen practitioner has been liberated in this way?
So no prior study. First time meeting with ChNN. Getting the introduction. Doing the practice (we don't know how long for). Getting liberated. Benefiting beings.
Do you really think this happens?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby username » Sat May 19, 2012 4:53 pm

What we often forget is that many of our previous lives was as different lifeforms in other worlds. Apart from the thousand Buddhas there are infinite types of manifestations of nirmanakayas in the universe and each Buddha emphasizes different aspects to suit the time and location. Dzogchen is also having separate histories in the thirteen lucky worlds that receive it in a large sector. The final fruit of the fourth vision is an actual dissolution of all phenomena back into the basic pure aspect of ultimate space. This includes the path and deities which should not be solidified by vajrayana practitioners either out of habit. Even if not dismissed in the higher Anuyoga yana the deity is nevertheless an empty clear manifestation that arises and dissolves from and back into that space. Thinking otherwise out of habitual needs is a great fault even in vajrayana.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat May 19, 2012 4:58 pm

xabir wrote:It is impossible to continue holding on to a view of self and at the same time be liberated.


It is impossible to hold onto a view of self or non-self and at the same time be liberated.

But I do not see how a person can awaken and then still hold on to their old beliefs and views or their religions, since they would have seen through the views of their old religions. In other words they can be a non-Buddhist up to the point of their awakening.


You still have not grasped the principle of "not changing anything". That means you integrate with wheverever you find yourself. If you recognize your real condition while belonging to the Christian religion, you do not suddenly have to stop going to church. Maybe you like going to church. Maybe, being a Dzogchen practitioner makes a _better_ Christian.

Maybe being a Dzogchen practitioner can make Buddhists better Buddhists because Buddhists quite frankly are really grumpy and narrow minded, just like anyone else caught in the grip of grasping one-sided views. I can say this because I have more experience of Buddhists. Maybe, being a Dzogchen practitioner can make a Dzogchenpa a better Dzogchenpa.

An example of using old beleifs and views while still awakening is Bon. Bon did not throw anything out. They still teach their egg cosmology along with another more modern, "Buddhist" cosmology. They divide all that "non-Buddhist stuff" and call it all "The causal vehicle", right where the sgar thal gyur places the vehicle of gods and men i.e.:

Causal vehicles:
Gods and men
Hināyāna
Mahāyanā

Result vehicles:
kriya
upa
yoga
mahā
anu

Vehicle beyond cause and result
Ati.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Malcolm
 
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