Tarpa wrote:I have one question, do you think liberation is possible in other religions without the teaching of dependent origination ?
I understand why you ask this because it is strong statement I have made in the past.
But the view of Dzogchen is not dependent origination at all. Dependent origination, in Dzogchen, is how we describe the arising of afflicted phenomena in Dzogchen, the pheomena that manifest out of non-recogition of our real nature.
I understand a direct experience surpasses any need for intellectual study of anything, like reading a map after you've already arrived at a destination and since our real nature is inherent than of course it would be accessible to anybody able to recognize it, wich is a wonderful thing of course, but do you think study of dependent origination and the wisdom teachings of Buddhism necessary for liberation ?
As I said in the first post in this thread, all that I think is necessary for studying Dzogchen is understanding the five elements and three gates and having a good motivation. All that is necessary for liberation is direct introduction and subsequent diligence applying that introduction. Of course one can study anything and it can be helpful and useful to broadening one's understanding, so if you read my first post, you will see what I said. If you are going to be a teacher, you have to study a little more broadly in order to relate to more diverse capacities.
Are you saying all other religions or whatever people want to call them can be looked at as stepping stones to an ultimate experience of ones real nature ( wich of course there is no label there saying " welcome to Buddhism you've made it " or anything like that ) , or looked at like part of the staircase of the gradual teachings, is what " the paths of gods and men mean ? It's okay they don't have understanding of dependent origination for now they are starting off in a good direction ? But wouldn't eternalist and solid self / soul / reality views etc. be a problem ?
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, it does not matter much what your intellectual view is.
For example, no matter whether you are a cittamatrin or a madhyamaka you can still attain liberation if you follow the the sadhana method. Why? Because the sadhana method in Vajrayāna recapitulates the experiential introduction in the third and fourth empowerments. The "view" in Varjayāna in general is not a result of intellectual analysis, it is a result of introduction and the experiential cultivation of introduction. If it does not matter whether you are a cittamatrin or a madhyamaka when it comes to practicing sadhana -- because you will still attain liberation either way. Your post-meditation view will not interfere with your sadhana practice. Since cittamtra is a realist viewand is does not intefere with your liberation when practicing a vajrayāna sadhana, why should other realist views interfere with your liberation?
Dzogchen is based completely on direct introduction. As long as you are willing to employ its methods, then what does it matter if you come to Dzogchen practice beleiving in Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc.? What does it matter if you believe in Para-atma? What does it matter if you believe in tathāgatagarbha which is described in so many tathāgatagarbha texts as a self (though, perish the thought, not the SAME self as advocated by the Hindus -- actually, if someone is reallty, really honest with themselvs , they will admit it is impossible to differentiate the sat cit ananda of the Hindus from the atman, sukha, nitya, śuddha of the uttaratantra)? The Dzogchen view is not a view, it is the experience of a moment of uncontrived awareness aka instant presence (an Indian moment i.e. roughly about 5 miliseconds) based on direct introduction.
As long as you are practicing Ati guru yoga etc., and doing your best, none of your previous conditioning, whether non-Buddhist or Buddhist will interfere with your liberation. Why? Because "liberation" is solely based on recognizing your real condition. It is not based on belief philosophy, intellectual analysis, conditioned merit, or anything else. It is not based on having a view of emptiness, dependent origination, buddhanature, etc. These views are just as relative as views of self, a creator, and so on.
I think I'd like to finally start getting into dzogchen, I have read a bunch of books about dzogchen but no actual dzogchen books per se, texts, I have been putting it off for years because I found it a bit confusing while studying mahamudra after experienced practitioners such as yourself were saying it is not the same thing while all the intro books about buddhism were saying it was, then I got the sense that maybe trekcho and mahamudra are more or less same but togal is something completely different than anything elsewhere, and terms and definitions seemed to be different in both systems so I didn't want to confuse myself and decided to study one or the other and picked mahamudra. Togal is mainly what I'm interested in learning about.
Well, start with klong sde. Listen to ChNN retreat coming up, it is closed, so you have to get your membership and the login right away. starts very soon, like thursday or something.
I think I'll join the dzogchen community.
Good call.
I'm a Buddhist and will always cherish it...
You don't have to change anything to be a Dzogchen practitioner. If you are a Catholic, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner and you can still partake of the Sacaraments of the church as much as you like, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Wiccan, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner. If you want dance naked under the moon during during a sabbat, there is no problem, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a religious Jew, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner, you can still observe the sabbath, there is no problem, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Taoist, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Buddhist because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner, when you practice Taoist rites and so on, just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Buddhist, you don't suddenly have to change and call yourself a Dzogchen practitioners because you have become a Dzogchen practitioner, when you practice meditation, sadhana, etc., just do so with presence and awareness.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, and all of sudden you don't feel very much like you need the label "Catholic, Wiccan, Jew, Taoist, Buddhist" there is also no problem. Just continue to practice Dzogchen and be present and aware.
Some people think I have abandoned Dharma. It is not true. My relationship to Dharma and my understanding of it has changed. As I mentioned before all Dharma paths, whether Buddhist or non-Buddhist, have the same motivation, the peace and happiness that comes from freedom.
I just don't feel the need to self-identify as a "buddhist" anymore. I am personally finding the label "buddhist" to be a limitation for me. I am not suggesting to anyone else that they need to change anything.
M
