Dzogchen and Buddhism

[asunthatneversets]

But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I think bottom line is most of them only go as far as the ālaya (interpreted in the context of their own traditions of course). That coupled with being severed from the lineage makes it quite difficult. Most traditions reify a ground as a true existent. No other tradition does direct introduction, and not sure if they could given their self-inflicted shortcomings in that respect. Doesn't mean they cannot receive introduction and practice/benefit from it though.

[Dronma]

As I said, difficult is agreeing with what he said for the right reasons. Jax probably would also agree, by all the wrong ones.

Can we define in an absolute context what is right and what is wrong in the terms of personal understanding?
It is all due to subjective angle of view! That's why personally I think it is better always to keep our feet firmly on the ground.

[Dechen Norbu]

Dronma, have you read this part of his post?

The only thing that leads to liberation is knowledge of our true condition. When we know that state, we don't have need of faith since now we have certainty.

You don't need doctrinal explanations about Emptiness to recognize our true condition. Most people really have lousy knowledge about Emptiness anyway, even though they think otherwise. What you need is direct introduction; what you need is recognizing rigpa. Even if you can't get it the first time you receive introduction, it won't be intellectual knowledge about emptiness that will do much difference. If someone approaches the practice of contemplation according to the instructions found in Semde, for instance, that's much more useful. Anyone can learn them.
You believe you have to have mastered the knowledge about Emptiness to recognize instant presence? What makes you think so? Once you recognized it, just follow the instructions from your teacher and all will fall into place.
Even today Namkhai Norbu talked about his experience with his root teacher, Changchub Dorje. When Namkhai Norbu met him, he had a very large academic curriculum bellow his belt. So he thought he knew a lot already. When Changchub Dorje gave him direct introduction, Namkhai Norbu realized he knew nothing till then. What you need, if you are a Dzogchen practitioner, is direct introduction. Recognizing our true condition makes more in terms of progress than eons studying emptiness!

[Dechen Norbu]

But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I think bottom line is most of them only go as far as the ālaya (interpreted in the context of their own traditions of course). That coupled with being severed from the lineage makes it quite difficult. Most traditions reify a ground as a true existent. No other tradition does direct introduction, and not sure if they could given their self-inflicted shortcomings in that respect. Doesn't mean they cannot receive introduction and practice/benefit from it though.

That's the point.

[Dronma]

Dronma, have you read this part of his post?

The only thing that leads to liberation is knowledge of our true condition. When we know that state, we don't have need of faith since now we have certainty.

You don't need doctrinal explanations about Emptiness to recognize our true condition. Most people really have lousy knowledge about Emptiness anyway, even though they think otherwise. What you need is direct introduction; what you need is recognizing rigpa. Even if you can't get it the first time you receive introduction, it won't be intellectual knowledge about emptiness that will do much difference. If someone approaches the practice of contemplation according to the instructions found in Semde, for instance, that's much more useful. Anyone can learn them.
You believe you have to have mastered the knowledge about Emptiness to recognize instant presence? What makes you think so? Once you recognized it, just follow the instructions from your teacher and all will fall into place.
Even today Namkhai Norbu talked about his experience with his root teacher, Changchub Dorje. When Namkhai Norbu met him, he had a very large academic curriculum bellow his belt. So he thought he knew a lot already. When Changchub Dorje gave him direct introduction, Namkhai Norbu realized he knew nothing till then. What you need, if you are a Dzogchen practitioner, is direct introduction. Recognizing our true condition makes more in terms of progress than eons studying emptiness!

From what I know, for someone to be able:
1) to approach more or less Dzogchen,
2) to receive direct introduction,
3) to realize at least a little bit of what it is introduced to him/her,
it needs innumerable lifes of practising and developing the inner awakening of Bodhichitta.
Moreover, I don't refute Namdrol's writings which are admittedly impressive and inspiring.
However, I distinguish a few subtle flaws in between his lines, which I can justify easily by his recent overwhelming enthusiasm.

[Dechen Norbu]

Believe it or not, Dronma, I was quite the traditionalist back in the day.
I was going through the traditional tantric approach to Dzogchen, with a few very strict teachers (good teachers whose debt I won't ever be able to repay), until some significant events lead me to ChNN. I had heard about the DC, but I was so boxed in my conceptions that I never really payed much attention, until a few shakes. But we are heirs to our own karma... even the positive one.
Today I understand why I thought the way I did, how wrong I was and believe me, I was a fierce defender of the traditional approach. When I approached ChNN and his teachings, I was so lost that you can't begin to imagine. I was totally clueless and barely knew what he was talking about. My first webcasts were a train-wreck! So I started buying books. Things got a little better, bit by bit, but now I realize that even then I knew nothing! I took time. ChNN teaches with such depth that it's very easy to miss him, especially because you need experiential knowledge. You need insight to understand him and that comes from practice. Unlike other teachings, through which you may in fact learn a lot of intellectual material- important things mind you- when it comes to ChNN one really needs to go beyond the intellectual level (I'm not saying, by all means, that you didn't!!). Otherwise one will be missing most of it. I know that by experience, unfortunately!

Today I couldn't agree more with what Namdrol wrote. Mind you that I have unspeakable confidence in our teacher and I'm very minute when it comes to understanding what he teaches. If Namdrol goes against his opinions, I won't budge and will stick to ChNN teaching. Namdrol can tell you this is true because we had the good fortune of disagreeing in the past, something very healthy for our friendly relation! Of course this is the exception to the rule in our story. Normally when Namdrol and I disagree, he is right and I'm wrong, plain and simple. That's also something I know very well by experience. The guy is an encyclopedia with a tremendous amount of formal training, for goodness sake! I can't compete with that. But if it comes to things I already understood from our teacher, I'll stick to my story, as they say. And in this case, I assure you that to the best of my understanding, what Namdrol said could practically have been said by ChNN, in his own style of course. And I'm sure you will come to understand it too.

[Dechen Norbu]

From what I know, for someone to be able:
1) to approach more or less Dzogchen,
2) to receive direct introduction,
3) to realize at least a little bit of what it is introduced to him/her,
it needs innumerable lifes of practising and developing the inner awakening of Bodhichitta.

Namdrol is not saying that you attain enlightenment by practicing Xtyanism, Hinduism, shamanism, etc! Are you sure you are reading him correctly?
The fact that someone contacts a Dzogchen teacher and feels interested means all those steps are fulfilled. He is there, making contact right? Willing to learn? So those " innumerable lifes of practising and developing the inner awakening of Bodhichitta" are in the past, according to such theory, correct?
What am I missing?

[Dronma]

From what I know, for someone to be able:
1) to approach more or less Dzogchen,
2) to receive direct introduction,
3) to realize at least a little bit of what it is introduced to him/her,
it needs innumerable lifes of practising and developing the inner awakening of Bodhichitta.

Namdrol is not saying that you attain enlightenment by practicing Xtyanism, Hinduism, shamanism, etc! Are you sure you are reading him correctly?
The fact that someone contacts a Dzogchen teacher and feels interested means all those steps are fulfilled. He is there, making contact right? Willing to learn? So those " innumerable lifes of practising and developing the inner awakening of Bodhichitta" are in the past, according to such theory, correct?
What am I missing?

Yes, correct, dear Dechen Norbu!
Don't worry, I do not contradict with Namdrol or you. I am only playing with words and notions in order to cut through solidification.....

[Dechen Norbu]

No worries, dear friend
I'm ... off to bed now!

[Malcolm]

But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I have no intention of stirring up any old debates, but, but an outsider looking in, it has been my experience that non-Dzogchen (specifically Advaita) traditions can introduce people to the cognizant nature of the mind. What seems to be missing is an introduction to the essence of mind, emptiness. At least it was for me. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

In fact, Emptiness or Voidness or Sunyata does not exist to anyone of the aforementioned doctrines I am aware!
Which bring us the first and most serious obstacle for the actualization of the otherwise Namdrol's appealing theory............

Dzogchen is for anyone who is interested, without any preconditions at all.

[Lhug-Pa]

Anjali and Asunthatneversets, I keep quoting this because it's a pretty significant statement coming from a Gelugpa:

Recognizing Effulgent Rigpa

We must be careful not to confuse and take the realization of the alaya for habits to be the realization of rigpa. Further, we need to be careful not to confuse and take to be the realization of rigpa a decisive awareness (nges-shes) of either the conventional nature (the mere producing and perceiving of cognitive appearances) or the deepest nature (voidness) of the alaya for habits. To do so would be confusing Dzogchen meditation with Gelug/Kagyu Mahamudra.

We need to go deeper and subtler, so that we experience and recognize a cognitive inbetween space that has deep awareness of its own two-truth nature. If we succeed, the factor of dumbfoundedness stops accompanying our meditation and the alaya for habits becomes rigpa. Because of having "greased" the pathways of our energy-channels with previous anuyoga practice and synchronized the winds with mantra recitation, then in the process of this meditation, all grosser levels of mental activity - and specifically the alaya for habits - automatically dissolve.

If that can even be said of Mahamudra, then it would confirm what you've both said here even more.

But I would agree—mostly based on what I've read and what others have said—that one doesn't necessarily have to have a complex intellectual understanding of Emptiness via Madhyamaka, etc. to be a Dzogchenpa.

[Andrew108]

Dzogchen is for anyone who is interested, without any preconditions at all.

This is pretty much what other experienced Dzogchenpas have said. It's like our human right so to speak. I'm also thinking about what Keith Dowman has said and who takes this idea a little bit further.
But wow there can be problems with this. Personally I think a precondition for Dzogchen practice is that we practice anonymously. That we don't gather in groups. That we don't see our teacher for years and years is a good thing. That we use and test the teachings everyday in ordinary situations and see the natural qualities of genuine love and compassion shining out. That we swear by oath that we will never become teachers. So yep the guru yoga and introduction and then living with the natural consequences.
Maybe people don't get the transmission and so keep coming back for more and more and more. We build the institutions and the politics and the money and the financing and the debt and so on. It's easy to make clear the principle of Dzogchen but then there is an actual holding back on the consequences. We should be flying free but we seem to be stuck talking to each other. Or planning for the next retreat. Or thinking perhaps that we might combine Dzogchen with something else or that may be we could become a teacher of Dzogchen or use the methods and form our own meditation group or healing group and so on.
This is where the traditional buddhist lineages have helped preserve the Dzogchen teachings and method. Having Dzogchen as the highest yana and so on has preserved Dzogchen. Buddhism is the perfect construct for structureless Dzogchen. If we don't keep it within this tradition then we will lose it for sure. This is a sad fact. But really Buddhism is the bank and Dzogchen the treasure. Take away the bank and you lose the treasure.

[Mariusz]

But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I have no intention of stirring up any old debates, but, but an outsider looking in, it has been my experience that non-Dzogchen (specifically Advaita) traditions can introduce people to the cognizant nature of the mind. What seems to be missing is an introduction to the essence of mind, emptiness. At least it was for me. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

In fact, Emptiness or Voidness or Sunyata does not exist to anyone of the aforementioned doctrines I am aware!
Which bring us the first and most serious obstacle for the actualization of the otherwise Namdrol's appealing theory............

Agree. Alternatively, if they are existing now somehow, they are just copies from Buddhism. Moreover, Dzogchen is not sutra simply, so if tantra, in tantra every complete initation has buddhist refuge included. Namdrol is forceing his theory here, although Dzogchen is not just theory. Buddhism is the heart of all paths, whether of samsara or nirvana, and is the truth that everyone is trying to discover. What is Buddhism? We all know the answer to that question -- it is our real condition. Try the method of Dzogchen if you are sure it is the best to realize so.

[Jnana]

Dzogchen is for anyone who is interested, without any preconditions at all.

So is Buddhism.

[Fruitzilla]

Did the spirit of Jax possess Namdrols avatar or something??? Not only is he talking about universal spirituality but he's also writing page long explanations!

The more I'm reading Namdrol's posts in this thread, the more I think the same like Gregory....!!!!
He must be in a phase of metalaxis (mutation).

You know, he only shows to have deeply understood what our teacher says.
His post and Jax's rambles have nothing in common beyond the fact of being long.
In this case, I'm very glad Namdrol took the time to write such an amazing post.
I, for one, absolutely agree with all he stated and don't see a single contradiction between what he expressed and my deepest understanding of ChNN teachings.
As I said, difficult is agreeing with what he said for the right reasons. Jax probably would also agree, by all the wrong ones.

So, actually what Namdrol said here:

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe then we are more free. We are more free to celebrate life, sorrow at death, wonder at creation, we are more free to enjoy our lives and the lives of others.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe we are more free to celebrate the threatening "other", to celebrate the beauty of human diversity and difference, which is the strength of our species.

is only valid if you agree with it for the "right" reasons. I.e. if you are an insider. Outsiders can be ridiculed and ostracised for their diversity and difference as usual.

If it wasn't so sad, it would find it funny.

[Andrew108]

......is only valid if you agree with it for the "right" reasons. I.e. if you are an insider. Outsiders can be ridiculed and ostracised for their diversity and difference as usual.

If it wasn't so sad, it would find it funny.

True that.

[Astus]

But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I think bottom line is most of them only go as far as the ālaya (interpreted in the context of their own traditions of course). That coupled with being severed from the lineage makes it quite difficult. Most traditions reify a ground as a true existent. No other tradition does direct introduction, and not sure if they could given their self-inflicted shortcomings in that respect. Doesn't mean they cannot receive introduction and practice/benefit from it though.

That's the point.

Interesting. Although the nature of mind in all different schools are understood to be universal, and it is something quite easy to see, there is this idea that only one specific school/lineage has the actual methods to comprehend it, while obviously the teachings are known to so many. It is all right that there is an independent group of Dzogchen practitioners who don't want to identify with Nyingma, Bon, or any other school. But this ignorance of other teachings can easily result in arrogance that there is not a single Buddhist outside the Dzogchen group who has a proper understanding of the teachings that are actually found in their own sutras, tantras and treatises.

[kalden yungdrung]

Astus wrote:
But this ignorance of other teachings can easily result in arrogance that there is not a single Buddhist outside the Dzogchen group who has a proper understanding of the teachings that are actually found in their own sutras, tantras and treatises.

Tashi delek,

Are there then Buddhists who have understanding or are willing to understand Dzogchen?

Mutsog Marro
KY

[kalden yungdrung]

Astus wrote:
But this ignorance of other teachings can easily result in arrogance that there is not a single Buddhist outside the Dzogchen group who has a proper understanding of the teachings that are actually found in their own sutras, tantras and treatises.

Tashi delek,

Are there then "Buddhists", who have understanding or are willing to understand Dzogchen?
Forgot to ask you, what do you understand under:"can easily result in arrogance" ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

[Sönam]

Dzogchen is the object, the path and the fruit ... It "starts" on the base of realization itself, therefore there is no question of particular school, vehicule, culture, sect and so on ... is it not so simple?

Sönam