Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sally Gross » Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is the heart of all paths, whether of samsara or nirvana, and is the truth that everyone is trying to discover. What is Dzogchen? We all know the answer to that question -- it is our real condition.


A stunning post, clearly straight from the heart! :bow:

You may well surprise yourself yet by "going rainbow" -- if that post is not a rainbow message, I do not know what is. :anjali:
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 15, 2012 9:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:We must not consider the Dzogchen teachings as belonging to any religion, ideology, nation, class, race or tribe.
N
Nothing new. Tibetan word for Buddhism denotes “to turn inwards". We must consider Buddhism as The science of mind.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 9:27 pm

Mariusz wrote:Tibetan word for Buddhism denotes “to turn inwards". We must consider Buddhism as The science of mind.



Not exactly. The Tibetan word for "Buddhist" is "nang pa" "insider" as opposed to "phyi pa" i.e. outsider. We must cease to make a distinction between "insiders" and "outsiders".
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 15, 2012 9:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Tibetan word for Buddhism denotes “to turn inwards". We must consider Buddhism as The science of mind.



Not exactly. The Tibetan word for "Buddhist" is "nang pa" "insider" as opposed to "phyi pa" i.e. outsider. We must cease to make a distinction between "insiders" and "outsiders".

I quoted His Eminence the Third Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, Karma Lodrö Chökyi Senge; The Relationship between Buddhism & Christianity from http://www.dharmadownload.net/pages/english/Natsok/0010_Teaching_English/Teaching_English_0001.htm
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue May 15, 2012 9:35 pm

Sally Gross wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is the heart of all paths, whether of samsara or nirvana, and is the truth that everyone is trying to discover. What is Dzogchen? We all know the answer to that question -- it is our real condition.


A stunning post, clearly straight from the heart! :bow:

You may well surprise yourself yet by "going rainbow" -- if that post is not a rainbow message, I do not know what is. :anjali:


:good:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dronma » Tue May 15, 2012 9:36 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:We must not consider the Dzogchen teachings as belonging to any religion, ideology, nation, class, race or tribe.
N
Nothing new. Tibetan word for Buddhism denotes “to turn inwards". We must consider Buddhism as The science of mind.


The term Buddhism is a neologism which was invented by Westerners, like all -isms. It does not really exist in Indian or Tibetan philosophy!
The term in Sanskrit is Dharma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby greentreee » Tue May 15, 2012 9:42 pm

regarding the main topic/question... am i wrong in thinking that dzogchen is simply a form of esoteric buddhism? Primordial Awareness and Conditioned Consciousness are what we are, it isn't dualistic, it is a whole. from what i've experienced, the practices of dzogchen is about pealing away the layers of our conditioned consciousness, since it is the cause of our ignorance, at least in a general sense. i'm not a scholar and my ability to use particular terms and such are beyond my minds capacity, due to several factors.

over the years of reading and doing what it is i do, one quote from a teacher (from books, since i've never met him) that's stuck in mind for years, is ... and i'm paraphrasing... "sometimes when someone sees their true nature, it is nothing more than like a blind cat bumping into a dead rat." (a great one to contemplate)

anyways, it's always fun to read open discussions on dzogchen, i can remember times 10 to 15 years ago on another dzogchen discussion forum, some of the great positions people had. and yes some were namkai norbu students.

:yinyang: = primordial awareness and conditioned consciousness
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like where's the shampoo?"

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue May 15, 2012 9:45 pm

Hi Greentreee, have you read this post?

The Vast View

:bow:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 15, 2012 9:49 pm

Dronma wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:We must not consider the Dzogchen teachings as belonging to any religion, ideology, nation, class, race or tribe.
N
Nothing new. Tibetan word for Buddhism denotes “to turn inwards". We must consider Buddhism as The science of mind.


The term Buddhism is a neologism which was invented by Westerners, like all -isms. It does not really exist in Indian or Tibetan philosophy!
The term in Sanskrit is Dharma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
To put it briefly -ism is mainly for politicians and businessmen.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Astus » Tue May 15, 2012 10:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is the heart of all paths, whether of samsara or nirvana, and is the truth that everyone is trying to discover. What is Dzogchen? We all know the answer to that question -- it is our real condition.

Everyone, no matter what religion they belong to, is trying to discover the truth. That truth exists in the heart of every single sentient being. So when you discover that truth, there is no need to remain locked in the limitations of "Buddhist" and "non-Buddhist".
...
If we ground ourselves in the deep natural transformation that comes from recognizing and integrating with our primordial potentiality, then we can go beyond the limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. By going beyond these limitations (as well as the limitations of conceptuality, imputation, paths, stages, realizations, attainments, buddhas and sentient beings) through recognizing our own innate state that is originally pure and naturally formed, we can move freely through the world and meet everyone and everthing from the authentic space of recognition of great original purity of all that is.


I don't know how much you wander in Buddhism, but this is a topic others have also thought about and wrote of. Just a few examples:

One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism by Joseph Goldstein
Rebel Buddha: A Guide to a Revolution of Mind by Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche
Just Use This Mind: Follow the Universal Truth to Oneness of Mind, Body and Spirit by Ven. Miao Tsan

And don't forget the modern movements of Vipassana and Zen that detached themselves from cultural and religious limitations and started to focus on personally experiencing the true nature of mind. This is basically the recipe of their success among Westerners.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby greentreee » Tue May 15, 2012 10:23 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Hi Greentreee, have you read this post?

The Vast View

:bow:



hello, just did, thanks. i have a couple Jamgon Kontrul Rinpoche books actually. been awhile since i've read them though.
scratching thick hair'd head,
"if air can be conditioned,
like where's the shampoo?"

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue May 15, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi Astus

Since Direct Introduction from the Guru is the foundation of Dzogchen, it follows that the only way that Vipassana or Zen could be integrated with the Natural State of the Great Perfection as pointed out by a Guru, would be if the Vipassana or Zen student or teacher has received the Direct Introduction him or herself; whether in this physical dimension or in a Dream Yoga state.

From what I've learned, it is not necessary to receive Tantra Empowerments or Direct Introduction for the successful practice of Dream Yoga, although said successful Dream Yoga practice without Empowerment is probably rare. And who's to say that a Zen or Vipassana teacher couldn't meet Dzogchen teachers in a Meditation or Dream Yoga state and receive teachings from them? Of course if they went around saying that that is how they received their Direct Introduction to the Nature of Mind, many people would automatically discount them because they don't have proof of a physical lineage. And of course false teachers could appear in Dream Yoga dimensions just like they do here, although maybe one would have a higher chance of meeting a real Master in a Dream Yoga state, if that Dream Yoga experience is one of unmistakable clarity.

And I think that Nirmanakaya forms of teachers can appear to the student in a meditation or dream state; in other words, not all dimensions accessed in Meditation or Dream Yoga are necessarily Sambhogakaya realms that are only accessible to 8th Bhumi and above Bodhisattvas.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 11:04 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Tibetan word for Buddhism denotes “to turn inwards". We must consider Buddhism as The science of mind.



Not exactly. The Tibetan word for "Buddhist" is "nang pa" "insider" as opposed to "phyi pa" i.e. outsider. We must cease to make a distinction between "insiders" and "outsiders".

I quoted His Eminence the Third Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, Karma Lodrö Chökyi Senge; The Relationship between Buddhism & Christianity from http://www.dharmadownload.net/pages/english/Natsok/0010_Teaching_English/Teaching_English_0001.htm


Many forms of Hinduism would qualify as "Buddhism" under this definition of "nang pa" because certainly, Hindu yogins all turn "inwards" to observe their consciousness, just as Kongtrul says: "We look at the source of discontent by turning our attention on our consciousness." Under this definition Hindu religious tradition such as Yoga, Samkhya, Advaita, Trika, etc., as well as Bon, Sufism, Mystical Christianity, Taoism and neo-Confucism, and Modern Psychology in its various forms all qualify under the this definition.

But I will am happy to agree that by the definition you have provided all these different disciplines are devoted to turning "...our attention inwards".

However in reality, the term "nang pa" is a sectarian term which distinguishes insiders (Buddhists) from outsiders (Non-Buddhists,including Bonpos, depending on which Tibetan author one reads and depending on the century).

This we can see clearly in the common definition of nang pa in any Tibetan dictionary, but in particular, the bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo give it as follows:

    nang pa: chos phyi nang gnyis su phye ba'i nang pa ste sangs rgyas pa

    Insider, the insiders of the division of both insider and outsider dharmas are the Buddhists (sang rgyas pa).

And for outsiders:
    phyi pa - phyi rol pa ste, sangs rgyas chos lugs pas rang nyid la nang pa zer zhing, rang gi chos lugs ma yin pa rnams la phyi rol pa'am mu stegs pa zer,

    Outsider: the one who is outside. Dharma system of the Buddha calls itself "insiders", but those who are not of our dharma system are called outsiders or tīrthikas (mu stegs pa).
If you gloss the term "nang pa" as Kongtrul has done (and this is a common gloss popular in the West), then as I said, you are left with the conclusion that all these tīrthikas are nang pas too. Which suits me just fine since they too are concerned to know their minds and turn inwards to do so.

So in the end we are left with the fact that this language should be abandoned. Buddhists should not call themselves "insiders" in contradistinction to "outsiders" as if Non-buddhists are not concerned with the same issues as freedom from suffering and liberation from the kleshas through turning their attention within for they very clearly are.

In fact the terms "insider" and "outsider" are just native sectarian Tibetan terms that Buddhists in Tibet used to distinguish themselves from Bonpos, Muslims, Christians, Taoists, and so on.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Astus » Tue May 15, 2012 11:45 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Since Direct Introduction from the Guru is the foundation of Dzogchen, it follows that the only way that Vipassana or Zen could be integrated with the Natural State of the Great Perfection as pointed out by a Guru, would be if the Vipassana or Zen student or teacher has received the Direct Introduction him or herself; whether in this physical dimension or in a Dream Yoga state.


That was not my point. I talked about the attitude Namdrol presented how Dzogchen can be taught to all humans regardless of race, country, creed, etc. is an idea took up by other people too. And there the teaching is also presented as something that can be experienced by all and not as a doctrine, thus it universally applies to everybody.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed May 16, 2012 12:10 am

Astus wrote:That was not my point. I talked about the attitude Namdrol presented how Dzogchen can be taught to all humans regardless of race, country, creed, etc. is an idea took up by other people too. And there the teaching is also presented as something that can be experienced by all and not as a doctrine, thus it universally applies to everybody.


Oh I see, and I'm sure you knew that about the foundation of Dzogchen anyway. In seeing your reference to the 'true nature of mind' I thought that you meant something related to as in if other teachings in and of themselves could lead people to the same knowledge as that of Dzogchen.

But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I guess I should have started that post with "not to answer for Namdrol" as well. Speaking of which, I'm wondering...; is it generally considered bad forum etiquette to attempt to answer someone's question that is specifically addressed to another forum member besides oneself?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dronma » Wed May 16, 2012 12:18 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Did the spirit of Jax possess Namdrols avatar or something??? Not only is he talking about universal spirituality but he's also writing page long explanations! :smile:


The more I'm reading Namdrol's posts in this thread, the more I think the same like Gregory....!!!! :applause:
He must be in a phase of metalaxis (mutation). :mrgreen:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed May 16, 2012 12:31 am

Namdrol wrote:Dzogchen is the heart of all paths, whether of samsara or nirvana, and is the truth that everyone is trying to discover. What is Dzogchen? We all know the answer to that question -- it is our real condition.

Everyone, no matter what religion they belong to, is trying to discover the truth. That truth exists in the heart of every single sentient being. So when you discover that truth, there is no need to remain locked in the limitations of "Buddhist" and "non-Buddhist".

Limitations are what cause all the suffering in the world.

We cannot change the world for others, but we can change the world for ourselves. The only way to do this is to evolve beyond the limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race, and tribe. If we go beyond these limitations through discovering our primordial potentiality, then we are participating in changing the world.

As we have seen, for example, the six liberations are not just for Buddhists -- you don't have to make someone a Buddhist in order to sing Song of the Vajra for them, for example, or recite the Aspiration of Samantabhadra -- any sentient being who hears these sung or recited will have a seed of future liberation planted in their continuum, thos grol (liberation through hearing). You don't have to make someone a Buddhist to give them some myong grol (liberation through taste), or give them a btags grol (liberation through wearing), or show them some image that is a mthong grol (liberation through sight), or give them some incense which is a specially formulated dri grol (liberation through smell), etc.

Of course I am a Buddhist. But where I used to be a Buddhist before I was a Dzogchen practitioner, now it is other way around. This is not because of some intellectual trip. This is based on my practice of Buddhism and Dzogchen for 20+ years now.

I can see really clearly that we need to go beyond Buddhist provincialism. We even complain about sectarianism among Buddhists. We also war with each other about such things whose Karmapa is the real one; which is better, gzhan stong or rang stong; is yogacara as high as madhayamaka or not; is Theravada Hinayāna or not; is Mahāyāna or the tantras the real teaching of the Buddha or not. If we do not go beyond these kinds of petty intellectual differences, we will never survive as a species and we will continue to destroy ourselves.

In the end it honestly does not matter much whether we put our faith in Jesus, Krishna or Buddha. There is no perfect faith that leads to liberation. The only thing that leads to liberation is knowledge of our true condition. When we know that state, we don't have need of faith since now we have certainty.

We do not need to ecumenically pretend that all paths lead to the same place. All we need to understand is that everyone is searching for the same thing, the peace and happiness that springs from freedom. We can overcome all our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe just by maintaining presence and awareness of this fact.

When we have overcome our own limitations regarding religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe, then we can work with any circumstances. If one is attached to some limitation, there is no way one can work well with circumstances. One can only work with circumstances by seeing what one's limitations are.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe then we are more free. We are more free to celebrate life, sorrow at death, wonder at creation, we are more free to enjoy our lives and the lives of others.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe we are more free to celebrate the threatening "other", to celebrate the beauty of human diversity and difference, which is the strength of our species.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe we are more free to act wisely, to cherish this beautiful planet we live on and all the richness of life, the plants, the animals, the rocks, minerals, oceans, mountains, rivers, and lakes it offers us.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our own state through personal experience the universe and all the beings in it are revealed as an astonishing panoply of spheres of light and color, sound, lights and rays that has no boundary nor center.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our own state just as it is, we have no need to ensure any creed, no need to confirm any ideology, no need to control anyone or anything -- we can let the free be free as they have been all along whether they know it or not.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe thorugh direct and perfect knowledge of our own state, then, if we have the capacity, we can introduce others to their own state without regard to religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe.

If, for example, Dzogchen teachings are only for Buddhists, how can we ever hope to overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe? How can enforcing limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe ever be useful in the project of overcoming our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe?

Dzogchen teachings are for all who are interested. Because the ancient peoples of Zhang Zhung and Tibet were interested in Dzogchen, Dzogchen spread there before the formal advent of Buddhism in that country. Originally Dzogchen was not a formal part of Buddhism. It spread through a very small lineage of practitioners. This group of practitioners, beginning with Mañjuśrīmitra, saw that Dzogchen was the essence of what the Buddha was trying to communicate. So they spread it slowly. Later, because Padmasambhava, Vairocana and Vimalamitra brought it to Tibet and some Tibetans too understood it was the essence of the Buddha's teaching, they kept it in secret and it slowly spread among Tibetans. Then, in the 11-12th century, when the Nyingmapas gained self-awareness as an independent school, they adopted Dzogchen as their official "position" in competition with the new translation trends and incorporated it into their school. But by this time, Dzogchen had completely died out in India. But Dzogchen, as is proven by its presence in Bon, is not strictly the provence of Buddhism. Though the Bonpos revised their teachings to bring them into line with Buddhist teachings, Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an authentic line of Dzogchen intimate instruction that do not depend on Garab Dorje. Therefore, in the same way that early masters of Dzogchen were free from limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe and taught Dzogchen to whoever came to them, we should also endeavor to overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe.

We must not consider the Dzogchen teachings as belonging to any religion, ideology, nation, class, race or tribe. Instead, as practitioners of Dzogchen, we should endeavor to overcome our personal limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our real state just as it is. When we know our own state just as it is, we can engage with people wherever they are without ourselves throwing up any barriers of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. So I suggest it is very important for Dzogchen practitioners, including myself, to overcome any limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. We already have the means to do this -- we simply need to will to do it. If we ground ourselves in the deep natural transformation that comes from recognizing and integrating with our primordial potentiality, then we can go beyond the limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. By going beyond these limitations (as well as the limitations of conceptuality, imputation, paths, stages, realizations, attainments, buddhas and sentient beings) through recognizing our own innate state that is originally pure and naturally formed, we can move freely through the world and meet everyone and everthing from the authentic space of recognition of great original purity of all that is.

N

I read hundreds, no, I read thousands(!) of posts written by you.

For me, this one is, without the shadow of a doubt, the best of all.

It's easy to agree with what you wrote by the wrong reasons. Difficult is agreeing by the right ones. Great post!


:anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby anjali » Wed May 16, 2012 12:34 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I have no intention of stirring up any old debates, but, but an outsider looking in, it has been my experience that non-Dzogchen (specifically Advaita) traditions can introduce people to the cognizant nature of the mind. What seems to be missing is an introduction to the essence of mind, emptiness. At least it was for me. Now back to your regularly scheduled program. ;)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed May 16, 2012 12:36 am

Dronma wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Did the spirit of Jax possess Namdrols avatar or something??? Not only is he talking about universal spirituality but he's also writing page long explanations! :smile:


The more I'm reading Namdrol's posts in this thread, the more I think the same like Gregory....!!!! :applause:
He must be in a phase of metalaxis (mutation). :mrgreen:

You know, he only shows to have deeply understood what our teacher says. :thumbsup:
His post and Jax's rambles have nothing in common beyond the fact of being long.
In this case, I'm very glad Namdrol took the time to write such an amazing post.
I, for one, absolutely agree with all he stated and don't see a single contradiction between what he expressed and my deepest understanding of ChNN teachings.
As I said, difficult is agreeing with what he said for the right reasons. Jax probably would also agree, by all the wrong ones. ;)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dronma » Wed May 16, 2012 12:50 am

anjali wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:But this could get into a debate about whether or not non-Dzogchen traditions in themselves could introduce to people that which is introduced (the Nature of Mind) in Dzogchen (a debate which has been done to death).

I have no intention of stirring up any old debates, but, but an outsider looking in, it has been my experience that non-Dzogchen (specifically Advaita) traditions can introduce people to the cognizant nature of the mind. What seems to be missing is an introduction to the essence of mind, emptiness. At least it was for me. Now back to your regularly scheduled program. ;)


In fact, Emptiness or Voidness or Sunyata does not exist to anyone of the aforementioned doctrines I am aware!
Which bring us the first and most serious obstacle for the actualization of the otherwise Namdrol's appealing theory............ ;)
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