Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sönam » Tue May 29, 2012 7:56 am

St. Stephen's Cathedral at Pentecost sunday ...

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 29, 2012 8:39 am

Is that supposed to communicate something on point?
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Karma Dorje » Tue May 29, 2012 9:08 am

Adamantine wrote:Is that supposed to communicate something on point?


Perhaps that Dzogchen masters aren't nearly as uptight as their followers?
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 29, 2012 9:10 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Is that supposed to communicate something on point?


Perhaps that Dzogchen masters aren't nearly as uptight as their followers?
Yes, perhaps too it was made by secret camera :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 29, 2012 9:18 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, D&G, most people who realize Dzogchen teachings fully awaken in the bardo. There are 21 capacities of practitioners. Having the ability to correctly and perfectly communicate the transmission of Dzogchen does not necessarily mean you yourself will attain phowa chenpo, or even rainbow body. But everyone who sincerely dedicates themselves to Dzogchen, having had the fortune to meet the full teachings will awaken in the bardo -- or at minimum they will spend 500 years in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields before acheiving total realization. This is guaranteed as long as you understand the teachings. The third statement of Garab Dorje, literally translated means "continue in the confidence of liberation" -- this does not mean of course you are totally realized. It means you know the true meaning of liberation and are certain of acheiving it, so you "...continue in that state".



You really think Christians, Jews, Muslims, Jains, Rastafarians, Atheists, Agnostics, Scientific Materialists, Nihilists in general.. you think they can all easily accept and participate in Dzogchen teachings and practice when a big part of it is regarding Bardos and Buddhafields? And you believe that these teachings are not Buddhist?

Who is going to spend all of their time practicing something that most likely they will never see the biggest benefit from until after they die, in the "bardo" or "pureland", when they don't believe in bardos or purelands?
As I'm not Malcolm, I guess the visions in bardo of dharmata after one's own death are so easy to recognize as a direct introduction from living master of dzogchen now. Nearly nobody get it since the blank start, so Buddhism is necessary, particulary the Shitro of Karma Lingpa and so on. Btw, it wil be in Schweiz, "Zabho Shitro Gongpa Rangtrol" of terton Karma Lingpa; 11-12 august 2012, Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche; http://www.yeshekhorlo.ch
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 29, 2012 9:40 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Is that supposed to communicate something on point?


Perhaps that Dzogchen masters aren't nearly as uptight as their followers?


How about an interfaith, global harmonious sentiment.. he does this all over the world, prays at the wailing wall in Jerusalem, etc. Do think that means he believes in a creator God, and that he can't be saved unless he accepts Jesus as his personal savior? Or that the Messiah is coming on a donkey soon? Or whatever? Cmon. He is praying for all sentient beings, not to a God.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Karma Dorje » Tue May 29, 2012 9:57 am

Adamantine wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Is that supposed to communicate something on point?


Perhaps that Dzogchen masters aren't nearly as uptight as their followers?


How about an interfaith, global harmonious sentiment.. he does this all over the world, prays at the wailing wall in Jerusalem, etc. Do think that means he believes in a creator God, and that he can't be saved unless he accepts Jesus as his personal savior? Or that the Messiah is coming on a donkey soon? Or whatever? Cmon. He is praying for all sentient beings, not to a God.


HH is not a hypocrite. He is able to see what is of worth in all religions and all people and relate to them at whatever level possible. Not all Christians, nor all Jews have such a superficial understanding of God as merely an external creator. You would be surprised what some of them think of as God.

http://youtu.be/bD4NZpCr9LA

What a blessing to have conviction in one's path! What a curse to not see the richness of others' paths!
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 29, 2012 9:59 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
HH is not a hypocrite.


I never said or implied he was.

He is able to see what is of worth in all religions and all people and relate to them at whatever level possible.


Sure, different words, same idea.

Not all Christians, nor all Jews have such a superficial understanding of God as merely an external creator.

I never said they did. I've studied esoteric Christianity in depth and spent time in Jerusalem meditating with Kabbalists. But that isn't
the point. Neither of these esoteric paths believe in bardos or purelands, as us Buddhists do, and as such they would not embrace these aspects of Dzogchen teachings.




What a blessing to have conviction in one's path! What a curse to not see the richness of others' paths!


You're imagining a lot that's not there in my posts, creating illusory targets and hitting them.. I hope it is satisfying for you.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 29, 2012 10:09 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
HH is not a hypocrite. He is able to see what is of worth in all religions and all people and relate to them at whatever level possible. Not all Christians, nor all Jews have such a superficial understanding of God as merely an external creator. You would be surprised what some of them think of as God.

http://youtu.be/bD4NZpCr9LA

What a blessing to have conviction in one's path! What a curse to not see the richness of others' paths!
HH for me is rather an example of what the evolutionists investigated as "the science is going to be the most important": The Universe in a Single Atom: the Convergence of Science and Spirituality http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/ ... ingle-atom
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sönam » Tue May 29, 2012 10:31 am

Adamantine wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Is that supposed to communicate something on point?


Perhaps that Dzogchen masters aren't nearly as uptight as their followers?


How about an interfaith, global harmonious sentiment.. he does this all over the world, prays at the wailing wall in Jerusalem, etc. Do think that means he believes in a creator God, and that he can't be saved unless he accepts Jesus as his personal savior? Or that the Messiah is coming on a donkey soon? Or whatever? Cmon. He is praying for all sentient beings, not to a God.


Yes, and he is doing that in a church in front of an image of christus ... why should he? ... is he unifiying all?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 29, 2012 10:38 am

Sönam wrote:
Adamantine wrote:How about an interfaith, global harmonious sentiment.. he does this all over the world, prays at the wailing wall in Jerusalem, etc. Do think that means he believes in a creator God, and that he can't be saved unless he accepts Jesus as his personal savior? Or that the Messiah is coming on a donkey soon? Or whatever? Cmon. He is praying for all sentient beings, not to a God.


Yes, and he is doing that in a church in front of an image of christus ... why should he? ... is he unifiying all?

Sönam


http://dalailama.com/messages/religious-harmony

I am a religious practitioner, who follows Buddhism. More than a thousand years have passed since the great religions of the world flourished, including Buddhism. During those years, the world had witnessed a lot of conflicts, in which followers of different religions were also involved. As a religious practitioner, I acknowledge the fact that different religions of the world have provided many solutions about how to control an agitated mind. In spite of this, I still feel we have not been able to realise our full potential.


I want to emphasise that it is extremely important for practitioners to sincerely believe in their respective religions.
Usually, I say that it is very important to distinguish between "belief in one religion" and "belief in many religions". The former directly contradicts the latter. Therefore, we should resolutely resolve these contradictions. This is possible only by thinking in contextual terms. A contradiction in one context might not be the same in the other. In the context of one person, a single truth is closely associated with a single source of refuge. This is of extreme necessity. However, in the context of society or more than one person it is necessary to have different sources of refuge, religions and truths.


In the past it was not a major problem because nations remained aloof from each other with their own distinct religion. However, in today's close and inter-connected world there are so many differences amongst various religions. We must obviously resolve these problems. For example, there have been a lot of religions in India for the past thousand years. Some of them were imported from outside whereas some have grown in India itself. Despite this, the fact is that these religions have been able to coexist with each other, and the principle of Ahimsa has really flourished in this country. Even today, this principle has a strong bearing on every religion. This is very precious and India should really take pride in it.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Tue May 29, 2012 10:51 am

Sönam wrote:It seems that too many students of ChNN, to be able to understand the teaching, have to put them in boxes they can recognize ... these are there limitations and it does not serve the teacher and the teachings.
I am even asking my self if many have realized there true nature ...

Sönam


I want to apologize ... first for my very bad english, but as I understood we are on an international forum and we try to communicate with a unique language which is english. So native english have to understand they are not alone and that this forum IS NOT an english/american forum as such.
The second reason is that I should not have say "have realized" but "had a realization" ... it could be a difference.
The third reason is that it was not the point ... when in fact I could have asked to myself if many have understood what "eliminate doubt, not remain in dark" really means. I guess many have a point of view like "you have a doubt and one day you do not have a doubt", instead of a continuous processus that leads to complete realization, because "doubting" itself is the keypoint ...
But maybe I underestimate many ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Sönam » Tue May 29, 2012 10:56 am

I know all that ... it is a point of view. But if you just see a strategy, it's ok for me ... it was just an image, anybody can put words under it.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue May 29, 2012 12:31 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Is that supposed to communicate something on point?


Perhaps that Dzogchen masters aren't nearly as uptight as their followers?



Tashi delek,

What does that photo of the Dalai Lama inside a Chritian church figures ?


Does it mean that Christianity is as such venerated in Buddhism?
Does it mean that in Christianity, Buddhism is accepted?
Does it mean that here a kind of propaganda is put inside to get proved ones personal convictions?
Does it mean that now Christus is accepted to put in the Dzogchen Lineage?
Does it mean that here is only seen the Bodhisattva (Sutra) ideal which is venerated?

Maybe i should take a picture of myself in front of our Buddha, that would mean:
i am a Buddhist?

Or better said i am a Dzogchenpa?
Or better said I am a Tantrist.
Or better said i am a Sutra follower?
Or better said because the Buddha does embrace all teachers i am a Christian?


Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 12:49 pm

Adamantine wrote: You really think Christians, Jews, Muslims, Jains, Rastafarians, Atheists, Agnostics, Scientific Materialists, Nihilists in general.. you think they can all easily accept and participate in Dzogchen teachings and practice when a big part of it is regarding Bardos and Buddhafields? And you believe that these teachings are not Buddhist?

Who is going to spend all of their time practicing something that most likely they will never see the biggest benefit from until after they die, in the "bardo" or "pureland", when they don't believe in bardos or purelands?


Since Dzogchen is based on personal experience, anyone can practice if they are interested, no matter what they beleive. If they are not interested, what can we do? But if they are interested, they do not need to be converted to Buddhism in order to benefit from Dzogchen teachings.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue May 29, 2012 1:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote: You really think Christians, Jews, Muslims, Jains, Rastafarians, Atheists, Agnostics, Scientific Materialists, Nihilists in general.. you think they can all easily accept and participate in Dzogchen teachings and practice when a big part of it is regarding Bardos and Buddhafields? And you believe that these teachings are not Buddhist?

Who is going to spend all of their time practicing something that most likely they will never see the biggest benefit from until after they die, in the "bardo" or "pureland", when they don't believe in bardos or purelands?


Since Dzogchen is based on personal experience, anyone can practice if they are interested, no matter what they beleive. If they are not interested, what can we do? But if they are interested, they do not need to be converted to Buddhism in order to benefit from Dzogchen teachings.



Tashi delek,

Nobody has to be converted to Buddhism and to Dzogchen.
After thorough investigations one is convinced to do so, to accept the teachings of the Buddha or not.
Because the sympathy for the Teachings of the Buddha one is called a Buddhist and not anymore a Muslim etc.

Sure in case of DC we can call us a Dzogchenpa which seems to have no connection with Buddhism, but is again Buddha Dharma etc.
Well a new comer could get crazy of that all, but also old chaps here aboard.

A new comer would, if he /she heard about all which is here discussed, never go inside Dzogchen , Buddhism, Bon etc., i guess so.

Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Tue May 29, 2012 1:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:Dharma includes all nine yānas. To the extent that so called "Buddhists" and "non-Buddhists" comport with one or another of these yānas, they are Dharma practitioners. To the extent they do not, they are not. "Buddhism" is a label. Dharma is a practice. One is a category, one is a function. You can call yourself a "buddhist" and not practice Dharma -- there are many people like this. You can not call yourself a "buddhist" and be a Dharma practitioner, there are also many people like this. You can call yourself a "buddhist" and a be Dharma practitioner, there are also many people like this.

There are many Dharmas out there for many different people. Some of those Dharmas do not fit in the category of "Buddhism" i.e. the Dharma directly taught by the Buddha, but because they lead people to better rebirths, result in happiness in this life, and so on -- these systems are considered Dharma and if people practice according to to them, eventually they will acheive total liberation. Even though these so called tirthika systems are couched on a metaphyical language of unacceptable to Buddhists, and so on, even here it is possible that people can have profound experiences. This is obvious because they report it to be so.


I have no problem with this except that I personally feel incapable to, among the huge amount of worldly Dharma systems that exist, even guess which are of short term or long term benefit. I certainly can't say if any of them will eventually lead to liberation.

Of course, at this point you are debating with ChNNs statement. But I will endeavor to set out what I take away from it. People have generated traditions around Dzogchen. Those traditions are secondary. The rig pa'i rtsal dbang is much misunderstood. It is not a ritual, though it can be packaged in one. The rig pa'i rtsal dbang is direct introduction. Dzogchen transmission depends solely on direct introduction. Direct introduction can be given in myriad ways, there is no set tradition.


According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Definition of TRADITION
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

Which of these interpretation of "tradition" do you think ChNNR intend? Because certainly some of these above does corresponds pretty good with both Dzogchen and Dzogchen Community. No matter how direct introduction is achieved, it certainly can happen in many different ways, ChNNR himself have regularly been given three special transmissions every year according to a preset and that can, at least to a certain degree be called a ritual.

Definition of RITUAL
1: of or relating to rites or a ritual : ceremonial <a ritual dance>
2: according to religious law <ritual purity>
3: done in accordance with social custom or normal protocol <ritual handshakes> <ritual background checks>



The Dzogchen tantras themselves maintain that no distinction is made in Dzogchen between those of higher capacity and lower capacity, good karmic accumulations or negative.


Well, Jigme Lingpa certainly do that distinction in the Yeshe Lama.

Quite literally there are differences between the paths of renunciation (yānas 1-3), transformation (4-8), and self-liberation (ati).

As I have pointed out endlessly, there is a difference between Hināyāna and Mahāyāna, for example. Important differences in vows, conduct, practice, methods, etc. What is permissible in one is not permissible in the other. This also applies to Vajrayāna - what is permissible in Vajrayāna is not permissible in Mahāyāna. In Dzogchen there are no rules.


That things are different don't meant that they are incompatible or in any kind of conflict.

Sakyamuni did not teach Dzogchen so far as anyone knows -- there is no record of it in the original tantras of Dzogchen.


Except that he, for example in the Vima Nyingthik, is counted among the twelve Dzogchen Buddhas.

Not all nirmanakāya buddhas teach Vajrayāna, let alone Dzogchen. Not all buddhas teach a Vinaya and establish a monastic Sangha (such as Sikhin). Not all buddhas teach Mahāyāna. All nirmanakayā budhas are the same in terms of realization -- but their teachings, retinue, place, and time are all different. For example, when the buddha of hell manifests for hell beings, I am sure he is not teaching them Dzogchen.


In fact it was their realization I was referring to.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Tue May 29, 2012 1:54 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Because the sympathy for the Teachings of the Buddha one is called a Buddhist and not anymore a Muslim etc.
I agree with this approach. Having it no any intolerance and bias is needed. Also no any need for the new theory of "universal Dzogchen for every religion" or something fancy the same.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 29, 2012 2:03 pm

Mariusz wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Because the sympathy for the Teachings of the Buddha one is called a Buddhist and not anymore a Muslim etc.
I agree with this approach. Having it no any intolerance and bias is needed. Also no any need for the new theory of "universal Dzogchen for every religion" or something fancy the same.


Not Dzogchen for every religion -- Dzogchen for every person regardless of religion.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Future of Dzogchen Teachings

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 29, 2012 2:04 pm

This is a crucial point that your critics seem to miss more often than not, Malcom.
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