Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon May 28, 2012 6:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:For example, before Buddhism I was taken part in an order of western mysticism, in where I had received initiations, too. Do you think that I can include those initiators in my Dzogchen Guru Yoga?


You can unify everything in Ati Guru Yoga. Even the person who taught you to tie your shoes.



Tashi delek,

In Bon is the Lineage kept clean / clear, by not adding everything inside the Lineage.
This because Bonpos are happy with all their Dzogchen Masters who are all unified in one Buddha but are also individual honoured in the form of Guru Yoga.
Here it is realy not nescessary to add others to the Lineage, would mean for a Bonpo that something is missing in the Lineage........... :jumping:

Like Dronma told for some is there no need to do so (here is meant that Dronma does not want to add in her Lineage her previous convictions, but for some they need that certain special freedom.

Well in Bon we don't know those kinds of freedom(s) and Bon does not practice for that, not a kind of incomplete Guru Yoga.
So for Bonpos like me does this all sound like new age Dzogchen, cannot help it :D


Mutsog Marro
KY
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Mon May 28, 2012 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 28, 2012 6:26 am

The point of taking a graduated approach to Dzogchen is that by the time we are introduced to Dzogchen we will see it as something extremely precious. I've also met Osho people in the DC and they don't really think of Dzogchen as supreme at all and often go back to Osho practices and so on. I'm not saying they shouldn't but Dzogchen in my opinion is impossible to value fully if 1. you haven't built a Buddhist identity and had Dzgchen deconstruct it and 2. you haven't at least understood the implications of absence of self.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon May 28, 2012 7:31 am

Dronma wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:But my question was about the unification of "non-buddhist" masters in the Ati Guru Yoga. Since our teacher has explained that we cannot include Jesus Christ (hence Mohammed, nor Jehovah) in the Refuge Tree, then who are those "non-buddhist" masters? [/color]


Ok, first of all. If you were never a Christian, or a Hindu, or never took teachings from such a master, for example, Hatha Yoga, Ayurveda, etc., then there is no need. But if you have taken teachings from such people, then you can carry this into your Ati Guru Yoga.

When we do refuge in the DC -- we generally do not do an elaborate refuge tree visualization, we do the One Jewel Unifies All system, so the principle is still the same.

It is not about including Jesus, Mohammed and so on in some imaginary refuge tree; it is about honoring the sources of all of our spritual knowledge, so the idea is completely different. It is about honoring all of our teachers, no matter what Dharma tradition they come from in the nine yānas. All Yānas belong to Samantabhadra, including the so called samsaric ones. This is the principle that is in play here. The Rigpa Rangshar states:

Though my yānas are inconceivable, when summarized,
they are included in two, samsara and nirvana


This means that all Dharma systems, "Buddhist" and "Non-Buddhist" are vehicles of Samantabhadra. If you have a connection with any of them, you unify them through the principle of Guru Yoga and go beyond limitations.

M


There are many people in what is called "Western civilization" nowadays, who were firstly (some still remain) Christians and then joined Dzogchen.
Our master ChNN Rinpoche advised them - when they asked him - not to include Jesus Christ in their unification of Gurus.
Moreover, there are many people in my place who come from the circles of Osho. Maybe they conceive that they can include Osho in Guru's unification of the Refuge Tree. But when in the past ChNN Rinpoche was asked about Osho, he replied: "We are lucky that he was only one"......

P.S. I am sorry but the only advise I can rely on, is the advice which comes out from the mouth of my beloved teacher. Not from books - especially from selected quotes.



Tashi delek,

The words of your/the Master are Gold in comparison to silver.
But also the words of the Master are sometimes misunderstood
Due to the Mind of Karma
Rest the practice of abiding
and correcting thereafter by study the wrong understood Golden Words of the Master

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Mon May 28, 2012 7:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Though my yānas are inconceivable, when summarized,
they are included in two, samsara and nirvana


This means that all Dharma systems, "Buddhist" and "Non-Buddhist" are vehicles of Samantabhadra. If you have a connection with any of them, you unify them through the principle of Guru Yoga and go beyond limitations.

M
In bardo of Dharmata everyone can have 4 visions after one's own death, as it is written in Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790. When it "occurs", there are the Eight Modes of Arising of Spontaneous Accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) for Nirvana (complete enlightenment) or for Samsara (rebirth in one of the six realms): ...7) with the originally pure appearances (of Nirvana) appearing above, 8) with the appearances of six realms (of Samsara) appearing below. When you will "take refuge" in these "appearances of six realms", you "land" in Samsara again, because Sogyal Rinpoche wrote in his "Tibetan book of dying" they are familiar to us, not so frightened as buddhas.... Is it not true?

So be careful what "connection with" you are going to have! :smile:
Last edited by Mariusz on Mon May 28, 2012 8:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby muni » Mon May 28, 2012 8:04 am

Charcoal doesn't turn into gold.

Compounded beings are variable, not same karmic luggage. Therefore I see no help in merely promoting "Dzogchen teaching". This should be kept for oneself, if one has a heart to do so.

Dedicating all for others (opening ego-beton-wall) or it is all about me?

Clouds are discussing about the sky and there are prefered clouds and others in their clinging. But the vast sky itself has in equality, one taste; all white and dark clouds, rainbows, thunder and sunshine in its peaceful being and has nothing to say.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby muni » Mon May 28, 2012 8:06 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:The appaering body is not merely the master/wisdom-compassion. Wisdom is not locked up in right or partial correctedness. Wisdom cannot be divided, so all manifestations cannot be judged! Clinging to Rinpoche and rejecting other masters is not Guru Yoga.



Tashi delek,

Inside DC Guru Yoga, all Buddhas etc. are represent in ones Guru.
Wisdom must be realised with Compassion.
Wisdom alone is as standing on 1 leg.
The most manifestations can be judged by Wisdom and Compassion

- Compassion alone is stupid
- Wisdom alone is as a heart of stone
- Not understanding Guru Yoga is to fall in seperatism / idealism / extremism

Mutsog marro
KY



_/\_ smilies are blocked, cannot put one.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon May 28, 2012 8:46 am

Some people find a melong and use it as a gong, as they have no idea about reflection, only noise.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Mon May 28, 2012 9:07 am

Karma is a notion tacked on AFTER the event. No one can earn Dzogchen.
Reality " on the rocks" is too much. We need the soda of concepts to water it down.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Mon May 28, 2012 9:47 am

Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:But my question was about the unification of "non-buddhist" masters in the Ati Guru Yoga. Since our teacher has explained that we cannot include Jesus Christ (hence Mohammed, nor Jehovah) in the Refuge Tree, then who are those "non-buddhist" masters? [/color]


Ok, first of all. If you were never a Christian, or a Hindu, or never took teachings from such a master, for example, Hatha Yoga, Ayurveda, etc., then there is no need. But if you have taken teachings from such people, then you can carry this into your Ati Guru Yoga.

When we do refuge in the DC -- we generally do not do an elaborate refuge tree visualization, we do the One Jewel Unifies All system, so the principle is still the same.

It is not about including Jesus, Mohammed and so on in some imaginary refuge tree; it is about honoring the sources of all of our spritual knowledge, so the idea is completely different. It is about honoring all of our teachers, no matter what Dharma tradition they come from in the nine yānas. All Yānas belong to Samantabhadra, including the so called samsaric ones. This is the principle that is in play here. The Rigpa Rangshar states:

Though my yānas are inconceivable, when summarized,
they are included in two, samsara and nirvana


This means that all Dharma systems, "Buddhist" and "Non-Buddhist" are vehicles of Samantabhadra. If you have a connection with any of them, you unify them through the principle of Guru Yoga and go beyond limitations.

M


This is very clear and obvious ... if one have understood what Dzogchen is all about.

"LImitation is the root of all transmigration ... in Dzogchen there is no rules, we should be responsible of ourself" ChNN - 9/30/2011 -Lama Zabdon Nyingthig
"In Dzogchen there is no any limitation, use your head!" ChNN - 11/11/2011 - Nyangyud Khorva Dongtuk

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Mon May 28, 2012 10:01 am

It seems that too many students of ChNN, to be able to understand the teaching, have to put them in boxes they can recognize ... these are there limitations and it does not serve the teacher and the teachings.
I am even asking my self if many have realized there true nature ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon May 28, 2012 10:05 am

Blue Garuda wrote:Some people find a melong and use it as a gong, as they have no idea about reflection, only noise.



Tashi delek,

- How can these reflections then be seen with the help of explaining the Melong or the Crystal?


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon May 28, 2012 10:11 am

Sönam wrote:It seems that too many students of ChNN, to be able to understand the teaching, have to put them in boxes they can recognize ... these are there limitations and it does not serve the teacher and the teachings.
I am even asking my self if many have realized there true nature ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Did you realised your true Nature maybe?
Well i didn't :D
Who did here at the forum?
But we all try to do our best isn't?
And everybody only in the light of their level of understanding :applause:


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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Mon May 28, 2012 10:15 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:It seems that too many students of ChNN, to be able to understand the teaching, have to put them in boxes they can recognize ... these are there limitations and it does not serve the teacher and the teachings.
I am even asking my self if many have realized there true nature ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Did you realised your true Nature maybe?
Well i didn't :D
Who did here at the forum?
But we all try to do our best isn't?
And everybody only in the light of their level of understanding :applause:


Mutsog Marro
KY
I also try to my best in this forum, especially with Malcolm and Sönam :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Mon May 28, 2012 10:27 am

As far as I can make out ( and it seems to me that if one chooses to participate in an English language forum one should make an effort to do so in an intelligible way , much of the exchange is frankly grammatically and syntactically chaotic ) but as far as I can make out people are coming to the thread determined to view Dzogchen through the mirror of their previous learning...and they are then surprised that their view is seen as muddied.
Forget all that you have learned, stop trying to fit Dzogchen into a box, and listen to what ChNNN is actually saying.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby muni » Mon May 28, 2012 10:37 am

Blue Garuda wrote:Some people find a melong and use it as a gong, as they have no idea about reflection, only noise.


Intellectual Dzogchen is the weapon of pride. _/\_

A master never talks for proving its greatnesses, only for his own beings-students liberation.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Mon May 28, 2012 10:45 am

Lobsang P. wrote:As far as I can make out ( and it seems to me that if one chooses to participate in an English language forum one should make an effort to do so in an intelligible way , much of the exchange is frankly grammatically and syntactically chaotic ) but as far as I can make out people are coming to the thread determined to view Dzogchen through the mirror of their previous learning...and they are then surprised that their view is seen as muddied.
Forget all that you have learned, stop trying to fit Dzogchen into a box, and listen to what ChNNN is actually saying.

Bump. I am not trying to be offensive..quite the reverse, but a LOT of communication is being lost here because the grasp of English is not sufficiently nuanced.
I dont suppose those that are missing the nuances will listen however.... :roll: They are too busy gabbling in semi-gibberish.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby rai » Mon May 28, 2012 10:46 am

Sönam wrote:It seems that too many students of ChNN, to be able to understand the teaching, have to put them in boxes they can recognize ... these are there limitations and it does not serve the teacher and the teachings.

I am even asking my self if many have realized there true nature ...

Sönam


interesting reflection.

perhaps it would be beneficial that the forum users who are jumping in a role of experts, giving explanations and answering the questions could present some kind of study/practice background. we really don't know who is answering people questions etc. it could be just somebody who watched couple of webcasts or read few books :reading:
sometimes we see people who few months ago were asking most naive questions now are giving explanations and aswering people's questions :crazy:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Tara » Mon May 28, 2012 10:55 am

PLEASE NOTE

If the personal comments/attacks continue in this thread it will be permanently locked and those who make posts with personal comments/attacks will be suspended/banned from Dharma Wheel for being disruptive which contravenes section #2 of the Terms of Service which everyone agrees to abide by when registering an account. The team who moderate and administer this forum are volunteers who kindly give up some of their time to help maintain Dharma Wheel. One moderator has already spent a considerable amount of time and effort cleaning up this thread and it is rapidly becoming not worth the effort keeping this "Dzogchen and Buddhism" thread open. This is a final warning to all concerned.


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Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Mon May 28, 2012 11:04 am

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby muni » Mon May 28, 2012 11:07 am

Whether Wisdom-Compassion or ME. _/\_

No single one is "out" of selfless love.
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