Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Kilaya. » Tue May 15, 2012 3:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:I prefer to think that the Dzoghen practitioner can make use of all methods without regard to whether they are Buddhist or non-Buddhist.


I agree, let's just think of NNR who regularly visited a Catholic church for years after arriving in Italy. But then again, Dzogchen seems to be totally intertwined with Tibetan Buddhism. No Dzogchen teacher will tell you it's okay to do guruyoga with Shiva or Jesus.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 3:48 pm

Kilaya. wrote:
Namdrol wrote:I prefer to think that the Dzoghen practitioner can make use of all methods without regard to whether they are Buddhist or non-Buddhist.


I agree, let's just think of NNR who regularly visited a Catholic church for years after arriving in Italy. But then again, Dzogchen seems to be totally intertwined with Tibetan Buddhism. No Dzogchen teacher will tell you it's okay to do guruyoga with Shiva or Jesus.


That is because Shiva and Jesus are not part of the transmission lineage, so it does not apply.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby daelm » Tue May 15, 2012 4:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:[

Dzogchen, or rather the Dzogchenpa, is a part of Buddhism as long as you use the Buddhist methods, even if it is "only" Anuyoga.

/magnus


Since the first vehicle, according to the sgra thal gyur, is the vehicle of gods and men, are you stating that when a Dzogchenpa uses the methods of vehicles of gods and men they cease to be Buddhist?

I prefer to think that the Dzoghen practitioner can make use of all methods without regard to whether they are Buddhist or non-Buddhist. If you want to go to a kirtan, go. If you want to go to a Catholic service, go. If you want to go to a prayer meeting, go. If you want to dance with dervishes, go. If you want to attend a sweat lodge, go. If you want to hang out with a shaman, go, If you want to experiment once or twice with Ayuhuasca with a Brazilian shaman, go ahead. If you want to take peyote once or twice with a Mexican shaman, go ahead. If you want to spend time among Shaivite Sadhus, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Bonpos, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Brahmins, then like the Buddha himself, go ahead. Likewise, if you want to practice shrakvayāna methods, then go ahead.If you want to take refuge, and get a nice Tibetan name, then go ahead. If you want to practice Mahāyāna, then go ahead. If you want to take bodhisattva vows, then go ahead. If you want to practice the six levels of outer and inner tantra, then go ahead. Do you as Dzogchen practitioner have to do anything of these things? Nope. Should you criticize others for doing these things? Nope. What is indispensible for a Dzogchen practitioner in the tradition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu? Ati Guru Yoga and that is all. Other teachers of Dzogchen will see things differently.

N



:smile: :namaste: :smile: :twothumbsup: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

wonderful post. thank you.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 15, 2012 5:41 pm

Yes, it was really great. :thumbsup:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Tue May 15, 2012 6:18 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:[

Dzogchen, or rather the Dzogchenpa, is a part of Buddhism as long as you use the Buddhist methods, even if it is "only" Anuyoga.

/magnus


Since the first vehicle, according to the sgra thal gyur, is the vehicle of gods and men, are you stating that when a Dzogchenpa uses the methods of vehicles of gods and men they cease to be Buddhist?

I prefer to think that the Dzoghen practitioner can make use of all methods without regard to whether they are Buddhist or non-Buddhist. If you want to go to a kirtan, go. If you want to go to a Catholic service, go. If you want to go to a prayer meeting, go. If you want to dance with dervishes, go. If you want to attend a sweat lodge, go. If you want to hang out with a shaman, go, If you want to experiment once or twice with Ayuhuasca with a Brazilian shaman, go ahead. If you want to take peyote once or twice with a Mexican shaman, go ahead. If you want to spend time among Shaivite Sadhus, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Bonpos, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Brahmins, then like the Buddha himself, go ahead. Likewise, if you want to practice shrakvayāna methods, then go ahead.If you want to take refuge, and get a nice Tibetan name, then go ahead. If you want to practice Mahāyāna, then go ahead. If you want to take bodhisattva vows, then go ahead. If you want to practice the six levels of outer and inner tantra, then go ahead. Do you as Dzogchen practitioner have to do anything of these things? Nope. Should you criticize others for doing these things? Nope. What is indispensible for a Dzogchen practitioner in the tradition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu? Ati Guru Yoga and that is all. Other teachers of Dzogchen will see things differently.

N


That is certainly a way to interpret it but I see the vehicle of gods and men as a vehicle that don't transcend Samsara. Whatever you do there will never lead to freedom from Samsara but we certainly do a lot of "practices" in this vehicle anyway. I see the realization of Dzogchen as the heart of Buddha. From this realization and the natural unfolding of the Dharma and the Sangha there appeared a multitude of methods and teachings and a at a certain point they were organized in the nine yanas or whatever other scheme peoples personal tradition preferred. I don't know why Ati Guru Yoga would be indispensable either. If you actually know how to rest in the natural state 24 hours a day then I can't see that any method is indispensable. But until then I think it is great to use any method or any vehicle that is designed to transcend Samsara. Personally I am not particularly fond of following a gradual approach but I always try to keep devotion and compassion in my heart as it helped me a lot in my practice. Oh, and I am very fond of ChNNR's Ati Guru Yoga.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Tue May 15, 2012 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Tue May 15, 2012 6:27 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, I believe you are putting it better than me. Secondary is a better way to put it than unnecessary. For me they seem necessary. I don't know about others, but I believe many people also consider them like that. I just don't know if they are necessary for everyone, like a necessary condition to enlightenment. See my point? It's a slight difference.


Like I say above if you actually can rest in the natural state all the time, why would any method all be necessary? Methods are for people on the path. You can do one or you can do many. What is indispensable for you? Depends on your Guru's advice, no? Since you follow ChNNR it is no secret since we all know what he say is indispensable.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue May 15, 2012 6:42 pm

daelm wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:[

Dzogchen, or rather the Dzogchenpa, is a part of Buddhism as long as you use the Buddhist methods, even if it is "only" Anuyoga.

/magnus


Since the first vehicle, according to the sgra thal gyur, is the vehicle of gods and men, are you stating that when a Dzogchenpa uses the methods of vehicles of gods and men they cease to be Buddhist?

I prefer to think that the Dzoghen practitioner can make use of all methods without regard to whether they are Buddhist or non-Buddhist. If you want to go to a kirtan, go. If you want to go to a Catholic service, go. If you want to go to a prayer meeting, go. If you want to dance with dervishes, go. If you want to attend a sweat lodge, go. If you want to hang out with a shaman, go, If you want to experiment once or twice with Ayuhuasca with a Brazilian shaman, go ahead. If you want to take peyote once or twice with a Mexican shaman, go ahead. If you want to spend time among Shaivite Sadhus, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Bonpos, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Brahmins, then like the Buddha himself, go ahead. Likewise, if you want to practice shrakvayāna methods, then go ahead.If you want to take refuge, and get a nice Tibetan name, then go ahead. If you want to practice Mahāyāna, then go ahead. If you want to take bodhisattva vows, then go ahead. If you want to practice the six levels of outer and inner tantra, then go ahead. Do you as Dzogchen practitioner have to do anything of these things? Nope. Should you criticize others for doing these things? Nope. What is indispensible for a Dzogchen practitioner in the tradition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu? Ati Guru Yoga and that is all. Other teachers of Dzogchen will see things differently.

N



:smile: :namaste: :smile: :twothumbsup: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

wonderful post. thank you.

:bow:

Dechen Norbu wrote:Yes, it was really great. :thumbsup:


Great posting indeeed. Thanks, Namdrol :twothumbsup:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Anders » Tue May 15, 2012 7:04 pm

Jnana wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:The most interesting thing about Dzogchen is that if one has capacity and a qualified teacher, soon it has very little to do with beliefs and much more with letting beliefs crumble.

The same can be said for every Buddhist path, Śrāvakamārga on up.


You could in fact, substitute 'Zen' for Dzogchen' here and find equivalent discussions elsewhere online.

As I see it, this is just re-coating the basic message that the causes and effects of the path of liberation are not neccesarily confined to the arbitrarily named placeholder 'Buddhism'.

I think it's all a bit self-evident if you consider the almost chaotic complexity of karma and the Mahayana insistence on Bodhisattvas manifesting upaya in any and all guises necessary to support other beings. We should expect there are people with karmic connections to the path of liberation who will not necessarily form deep connections with 'Buddhism' in this Saha world, for a variety of reasons. And we should expect that there are Bodhisattvas who will instruct other beings without naming it Buddhism or resorting to Buddhist vocabulary if it serves a purpose. And it should be self-evident really that ordering a membership card to Club Buddhism is not a definitive karmic factor for liberation.

All that said and done, I am very much a pro Buddhist kind of guy. And I think the sutras support this for a reason. A recurring theme in the Mahayana sutras is making offerings to the Buddhas and generating merit through various means to be reborn in the presence of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Though Buddhism may not be the exclusive club of liberation, I think it is somewhat unique in the sense that I see it as a deliberately created culture of Upaya that enables people to not only have easier access to the presence of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and make progress on the path of liberation, but also to provide the means of creating the merit and karmic connections with this path for future lifetimes. The religious culture we call Buddhism is imo, both in regards to scripture and the social traditions of Sangha, a very powerful construct to preserve and facilitate these opportunities. And the impression I get from the sutras is that all this is very deliberate Upaya from the Buddhas, even if it comes with some downsides as well (but again, no need to flush the baby with the bathwater).

If there have been liberated beings outside of Buddhism, and I think that is quite likely, they have struggled to create persevering lineages of awakening in comparison to Buddhism. I don't think that is coincidence.
Last edited by Anders on Tue May 15, 2012 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Anders » Tue May 15, 2012 7:07 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:[

Dzogchen, or rather the Dzogchenpa, is a part of Buddhism as long as you use the Buddhist methods, even if it is "only" Anuyoga.

/magnus


Since the first vehicle, according to the sgra thal gyur, is the vehicle of gods and men, are you stating that when a Dzogchenpa uses the methods of vehicles of gods and men they cease to be Buddhist?

I prefer to think that the Dzoghen practitioner can make use of all methods without regard to whether they are Buddhist or non-Buddhist. If you want to go to a kirtan, go. If you want to go to a Catholic service, go. If you want to go to a prayer meeting, go. If you want to dance with dervishes, go. If you want to attend a sweat lodge, go. If you want to hang out with a shaman, go, If you want to experiment once or twice with Ayuhuasca with a Brazilian shaman, go ahead. If you want to take peyote once or twice with a Mexican shaman, go ahead. If you want to spend time among Shaivite Sadhus, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Bonpos, go ahead. If you want to hang out with Brahmins, then like the Buddha himself, go ahead. Likewise, if you want to practice shrakvayāna methods, then go ahead.If you want to take refuge, and get a nice Tibetan name, then go ahead. If you want to practice Mahāyāna, then go ahead. If you want to take bodhisattva vows, then go ahead. If you want to practice the six levels of outer and inner tantra, then go ahead. Do you as Dzogchen practitioner have to do anything of these things? Nope. Should you criticize others for doing these things? Nope. What is indispensible for a Dzogchen practitioner in the tradition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu? Ati Guru Yoga and that is all. Other teachers of Dzogchen will see things differently.

N


Are you saying bodhicitta is a dispensible part of Dzogchen?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby LunaRoja » Tue May 15, 2012 7:23 pm

ram peswani wrote:
Dzogchen is being claimed to be part of Buddhism as per writings on this site. Lotus sutra (direct from the mouth of Guatam Buddha) claims that Buddhahood is the ultimate aim of BUDDHAS ONLY.. According to Him BUDDHAS go to Nirvana and not to Emptiness. In Nirvana all Buddhas as one unit protect collected Wisdoms to create better universes.


Hi Ram Peswani and others,

I think you raise an interesting point. I have wondered how the Bodhisattva vow fits in with Dzogchen. Most Dzogchenpas state the ultimate state is inherently compassionate, but how do the nirmankayas appear within samsara? HH Sakaya Trizin gave a teaching in which he said the ultimate goal is the Great Nirvana which rest between samsara and nirvana. If I understood Him correctly I think He meant the mind rests within the great peace of Nirvana but can still appear within samsara due to the Bodhisattva vow. I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.

Kind Regards
LR
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 7:30 pm

Dzogchen is the heart of all paths, whether of samsara or nirvana, and is the truth that everyone is trying to discover. What is Dzogchen? We all know the answer to that question -- it is our real condition.

Everyone, no matter what religion they belong to, is trying to discover the truth. That truth exists in the heart of every single sentient being. So when you discover that truth, there is no need to remain locked in the limitations of "Buddhist" and "non-Buddhist".

Limitations are what cause all the suffering in the world.

We cannot change the world for others, but we can change the world for ourselves. The only way to do this is to evolve beyond the limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race, and tribe. If we go beyond these limitations through discovering our primordial potentiality, then we are participating in changing the world.

As we have seen, for example, the six liberations are not just for Buddhists -- you don't have to make someone a Buddhist in order to sing Song of the Vajra for them, for example, or recite the Aspiration of Samantabhadra -- any sentient being who hears these sung or recited will have a seed of future liberation planted in their continuum, thos grol (liberation through hearing). You don't have to make someone a Buddhist to give them some myong grol (liberation through taste), or give them a btags grol (liberation through wearing), or show them some image that is a mthong grol (liberation through sight), or give them some incense which is a specially formulated dri grol (liberation through smell), etc.

Of course I am a Buddhist. But where I used to be a Buddhist before I was a Dzogchen practitioner, now it is other way around. This is not because of some intellectual trip. This is based on my practice of Buddhism and Dzogchen for 20+ years now.

I can see really clearly that we need to go beyond Buddhist provincialism. We even complain about sectarianism among Buddhists. We also war with each other about such things whose Karmapa is the real one; which is better, gzhan stong or rang stong; is yogacara as high as madhayamaka or not; is Theravada Hinayāna or not; is Mahāyāna or the tantras the real teaching of the Buddha or not. If we do not go beyond these kinds of petty intellectual differences, we will never survive as a species and we will continue to destroy ourselves.

In the end it honestly does not matter much whether we put our faith in Jesus, Krishna or Buddha. There is no perfect faith that leads to liberation. The only thing that leads to liberation is knowledge of our true condition. When we know that state, we don't have need of faith since now we have certainty.

We do not need to ecumenically pretend that all paths lead to the same place. All we need to understand is that everyone is searching for the same thing, the peace and happiness that springs from freedom. We can overcome all our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe just by maintaining presence and awareness of this fact.

When we have overcome our own limitations regarding religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe, then we can work with any circumstances. If one is attached to some limitation, there is no way one can work well with circumstances. One can only work with circumstances by seeing what one's limitations are.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe then we are more free. We are more free to celebrate life, sorrow at death, wonder at creation, we are more free to enjoy our lives and the lives of others.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe we are more free to celebrate the threatening "other", to celebrate the beauty of human diversity and difference, which is the strength of our species.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe we are more free to act wisely, to cherish this beautiful planet we live on and all the richness of life, the plants, the animals, the rocks, minerals, oceans, mountains, rivers, and lakes it offers us.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our own state through personal experience the universe and all the beings in it are revealed as an astonishing panoply of spheres of light and color, sound, lights and rays that has no boundary nor center.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our own state just as it is, we have no need to ensure any creed, no need to confirm any ideology, no need to control anyone or anything -- we can let the free be free as they have been all along whether they know it or not.

When we overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe thorugh direct and perfect knowledge of our own state, then, if we have the capacity, we can introduce others to their own state without regard to religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe.

If, for example, Dzogchen teachings are only for Buddhists, how can we ever hope to overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe? How can enforcing limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe ever be useful in the project of overcoming our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe?

Dzogchen teachings are for all who are interested. Because the ancient peoples of Zhang Zhung and Tibet were interested in Dzogchen, Dzogchen spread there before the formal advent of Buddhism in that country. Originally Dzogchen was not a formal part of Buddhism. It spread through a very small lineage of practitioners. This group of practitioners, beginning with Mañjuśrīmitra, saw that Dzogchen was the essence of what the Buddha was trying to communicate. So they spread it slowly. Later, because Padmasambhava, Vairocana and Vimalamitra brought it to Tibet and some Tibetans too understood it was the essence of the Buddha's teaching, they kept it in secret and it slowly spread among Tibetans. Then, in the 11-12th century, when the Nyingmapas gained self-awareness as an independent school, they adopted Dzogchen as their official "position" in competition with the new translation trends and incorporated it into their school. But by this time, Dzogchen had completely died out in India. But Dzogchen, as is proven by its presence in Bon, is not strictly the provence of Buddhism. Though the Bonpos revised their teachings to bring them into line with Buddhist teachings, Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an authentic line of Dzogchen intimate instruction that do not depend on Garab Dorje. Therefore, in the same way that early masters of Dzogchen were free from limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe and taught Dzogchen to whoever came to them, we should also endeavor to overcome our limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe.

We must not consider the Dzogchen teachings as belonging to any religion, ideology, nation, class, race or tribe. Instead, as practitioners of Dzogchen, we should endeavor to overcome our personal limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe through knowing our real state just as it is. When we know our own state just as it is, we can engage with people wherever they are without ourselves throwing up any barriers of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. So I suggest it is very important for Dzogchen practitioners, including myself, to overcome any limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. We already have the means to do this -- we simply need to will to do it. If we ground ourselves in the deep natural transformation that comes from recognizing and integrating with our primordial potentiality, then we can go beyond the limitations of religion, ideology, nation, class, race and tribe. By going beyond these limitations (as well as the limitations of conceptuality, imputation, paths, stages, realizations, attainments, buddhas and sentient beings) through recognizing our own innate state that is originally pure and naturally formed, we can move freely through the world and meet everyone and everthing from the authentic space of recognition of great original purity of all that is.

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue May 15, 2012 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 pm

So Namdrol have you realized your real condition?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 15, 2012 7:59 pm

Did the spirit of Jax possess Namdrols avatar or something??? Not only is he talking about universal spirituality but he's also writing page long explanations! :smile:

That must have been a blinding insight you had on the road to Damascus (Washington County, Virginia), luckily for us you were not the one driving! :tongue:
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2012 8:01 pm

Andrew108 wrote:So Namdrol have you realized your real condition?



That depends on what you mean by "realize".

if you mean experientially understand, than yes. If you mean am I prepared to go rainbow, not anytime soon, probably not in this lifetime unless I stop writing posts and translating texts, gardening, and everything else I do.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 15, 2012 8:11 pm

Here's hoping you do go rainbow..
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue May 15, 2012 8:15 pm

LunaRoja wrote:Hi Ram Peswani and others,

I think you raise an interesting point. I have wondered how the Bodhisattva vow fits in with Dzogchen. Most Dzogchenpas state the ultimate state is inherently compassionate, but how do the nirmankayas appear within samsara? HH Sakaya Trizin gave a teaching in which he said the ultimate goal is the Great Nirvana which rest between samsara and nirvana. If I understood Him correctly I think He meant the mind rests within the great peace of Nirvana but can still appear within samsara due to the Bodhisattva vow. I am confused about how our inherent state resting within it's primordial nature fulfills the bodhisattva vow.

Kind Regards
LR


http://vajranatha.com/excerpt/BonpoBookoftheDead.htm

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Heartland » Tue May 15, 2012 8:18 pm

Long-time lurker, both on the board and the old eSangha board.
Just unlurking for a moment to say how much I like this thread and, in particular, Namdrol's posts and the last long post by him.
A lovely synopsis of what Dzogchen is all about, IMHO. Thanks! :namaste:
(Back to lurking.)
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mr. G » Tue May 15, 2012 8:21 pm

Heartland wrote:Long-time lurker, both on the board and the old eSangha board.
Just unlurking for a moment to say how much I like this thread and, in particular, Namdrol's posts and the last long post by him.
A lovely synopsis of what Dzogchen is all about, IMHO. Thanks! :namaste:
(Back to lurking.)


Yes, great posts N!
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 15, 2012 9:03 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Here's hoping you do go rainbow..
Here's hoping we all go rainbow!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pero » Tue May 15, 2012 9:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Did the spirit of Jax possess Namdrols avatar or something??? Not only is he talking about universal spirituality but he's also writing page long explanations! :smile:

I don't think he's saying the same things at all. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
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