Dzogchen and Buddhism

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Thu May 24, 2012 10:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:Read my posts. I am not here merely to answer your obsessive questions.

No comments.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Thu May 24, 2012 10:30 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Read my posts. I am not here merely to answer your obsessive questions.

No comments.


wouaaaaaaaaaah thank you!
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 10:38 pm

The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates. The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordial state of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 123-125). Kindle Edition.

For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is. If we decide to follow a spiritual teaching, we are convinced that it is necessary for us to change something, such as our way of dressing, of eating, of behaving, and so on. But Dzogchen does not ask one to adhere to any religious doctrine or to enter a monastic order, or to blindly accept the teachings and become a "Dzogchenist." All of these things can, in fact, create serious obstacles to true knowledge.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 161-166). Kindle Edition.

The principle in Dzogchen is to avoid creating anything false, and to really understand the reasons for what one is doing. It is not important to define oneself as belonging to this or that school, tradition, or point of view, and it makes no difference whether one considers oneself to be Buddhist or not. Basically, feeling oneself to be a follower of something or other is just a limit, and what one really needs is to understand one's own condition and to open oneself, getting rid of all these kinds of barriers.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 1048-1051). Kindle Edition.

For a practitioner of Dzogchen, even to call oneself "nonsectarian" is just another way of taking a position of one's own in relation to the position of someone else, which is irrelevant, because the truth is that any definition of this kind at all is an unnecessary limitation.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 1054-1055). Kindle Edition.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu May 24, 2012 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Ok, it is a Buddhist belief with a couple noted exceptions. This doesn't really change the point. Unless you are arguing that some Hindus and followers of a relatively extinct version of Christianity can practice Dzogchen without contradiction, but not everyone else?


It is also a mondern finding consistent with Quantum physics of various strands, and so on -- there are all kinds of people and people who do not think that world is "real" per se.

People who think the world is real generally do not seek out Eastern spiritual traditions.


Yeah but the issue isn't just the ability to question the reality of our sense perceptions, but the experience of the 6 Lokas, how they manifest, the understanding of Karma inherent in that, bardo and rebirth, however you want to parse it. These are quintessentially Buddhist teachings, that are inseparable from how we are taught Dzogchen. If you want to imagine what a Dzogchen without these will be like, was like, or could be like, that is fine. But it is imagination. This is how the teachings are now, how they function, and how we will achieve liberation is by following them. It seems like a useless expanse of proliferation to get so sucked into imagining these other possibilities. Anyone from any other tradition, or no tradition, is going to be exposed to these teachings with any current living Dzogchen master, and that is the point. All of the modern so-called Dzogchen-masters who do without these things are generally Westerners who appear to be charlatans with no lineage, or broken lineage, who are just trying to appeal to the widest audience for the sake of their own popularity.. I fear that these type of dialogues may even produce some new examples.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 24, 2012 10:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates. The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordial state of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 123-125). Kindle Edition.

For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is. If we decide to follow a spiritual teaching, we are convinced that it is necessary for us to change something, such as our way of dressing, of eating, of behaving, and so on. But Dzogchen does not ask one to adhere to any religious doctrine or to enter a monastic order, or to blindly accept the teachings and become a "Dzogchenist." All of these things can, in fact, create serious obstacles to true knowledge.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 161-166). Kindle Edition.

The principle in Dzogchen is to avoid creating anything false, and to really understand the reasons for what one is doing. It is not important to define oneself as belonging to this or that school, tradition, or point of view, and it makes no difference whether one considers oneself to be Buddhist or not. Basically, feeling oneself to be a follower of something or other is just a limit, and what one really needs is to understand one's own condition and to open oneself, getting rid of all these kinds of barriers.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 1048-1051). Kindle Edition.

For a practitioner of Dzogchen, even to call oneself "nonsectarian" is just another way of taking a position of one's own in relation to the position of someone else, which is irrelevant, because the truth is that any definition of this kind at all is an unnecessary limitation.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 1054-1055). Kindle Edition.


These are great quotes, and inspirational in a general way. But this does not change the fact that a great part of what ChNN teaches is actually inseparable from Buddhist Dharma.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Thu May 24, 2012 10:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mariusz wrote:No comments.



The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates. The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordial state of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 123-125). Kindle Edition.

For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is. If we decide to follow a spiritual teaching, we are convinced that it is necessary for us to change something, such as our way of dressing, of eating, of behaving, and so on. But Dzogchen does not ask one to adhere to any religious doctrine or to enter a monastic order, or to blindly accept the teachings and become a "Dzogchenist." All of these things can, in fact, create serious obstacles to true knowledge.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 161-166). Kindle Edition.

The principle in Dzogchen is to avoid creating anything false, and to really understand the reasons for what one is doing. It is not important to define oneself as belonging to this or that school, tradition, or point of view, and it makes no difference whether one considers oneself to be Buddhist or not. Basically, feeling oneself to be a follower of something or other is just a limit, and what one really needs is to understand one's own condition and to open oneself, getting rid of all these kinds of barriers.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 1048-1051). Kindle Edition.

For a practitioner of Dzogchen, even to call oneself "nonsectarian" is just another way of taking a position of one's own in relation to the position of someone else, which is irrelevant, because the truth is that any definition of this kind at all is an unnecessary limitation.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 1054-1055). Kindle Edition.
Namkhai Norbu is still a buddhist so he can teach what you quoted. Sorry my friend.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Thu May 24, 2012 10:44 pm

not only they are deaf ... but also they are blind

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 10:47 pm

Adamantine wrote: I fear that these type of dialogues may even produce some new examples.


"Fear is the mind-killer."

-- Bene Gesserit litany against fear
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 10:50 pm

Sönam wrote:not only they are deaf ... but also they are blind

Sönam



Yes, they only see what they beleive.

Oh well, the funny thing is I am not conditioning anyone. But Mariusz in particular is very interested in conditioning others to his point of view. Well this is his limitation, and not ours.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 24, 2012 10:52 pm

I don't really want to keep debating this. I will just say, as a Buddhist, on the dawn of the sacred month of Saga Dawa demarcating the anniversary of great events of Shakyamuni Buddha's life such as his birth and enlightenment under the Bodhi tree.. I hope in this Dharma Wheel forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhists we can celebrate and rejoice in the great fortune we have to have met the Dharma in this life. Whatever expression of it we practice, or hold closest to our hearts: Dzogchen, Mahayoga, Six Paramitas, Pureland, etc. I believe the entirety of these transmissions is a great treasure for each of us, and for our world-system in general. I don't agree that just because some very human examples of samsaric downfalls have been exhibited within any lineage, whether Vajrayana, Zen, or Dzogchen, etc. that this in any way degrades the essence of the Dharma that these lineages hold.. Let us all come together to celebrate the great Samyaksambuddha of our world system and age. It is due to his kindness that any of us are practicing, including the precious Dzogchen teachings.

Namo Buddhaya!

Namo Dharmaya!

Namo Sanghaya!

Sarwa Mangalam!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 24, 2012 10:58 pm

Adamantine wrote:I hope in this Dharma Wheel forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhists we can celebrate and rejoice in the great fortune we have to have met the Dharma in this life.


I have not been debating, just teasing out more possibilities than Buddhists typically wish to allow.

But yes, of course -- Namo Shakyamunaye.

M
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Mariusz » Thu May 24, 2012 11:57 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:For me happened it like that:
I did not knew nothing about Dzogchen and Bon, in my former Lineage, but after 23 years was Bon accepted as valid Lineage. That i went to Bon, this i did show in public, which was not allways seen as proper by some. But things can change very quick, maybe too fast.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]
Hmmm, are you somehow regret it now? For me the lineage is most important in Dzogchen and I'm happy with buddhist and have not need to add more. I've never been too fast. Here I'm writing there is no any lineage outside Buddhism and Bon now. Someones believe otherwise here, although "experiments" with other religions were not succeeded. It is important to not confuse others.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your replies.

No i don't regret it at all the connection with Dzogchen but also Chag gya Chenpo was welcome to a certain degree, seen now from the Dzogchen viewpoint(s). So for me too, the others are still my brothers, but i am more together with Dzogchenpas.

I fully agree Dzogchen Lineages are general seen Buddhist and are therfore Buddhadharma we all agreed.
But i have so the feeling that each one of us has so his/her own vision about a Lineage or the need of such a Lineage.
In so far are they all Buddhist and not Christian. So all is there. (also in Dzogchen)

Mutsog Marro
iKY
Thank you. We agree Inter-Religious :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri May 25, 2012 1:00 am

It actually is! That's him... Lama Drimed Norbu... He looks alot less Jewish with his hair tied back
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 25, 2012 1:38 am

This talk, published in 2002, by Father Francis Tiso, explores the connection between the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the phenomenon of the rainbow body. I first posted this talk on my FB page over a year ago. There might be some here who, in light of recent topics and posts in this thread, who would benefit from hearing it.

I was surprised when I first listened to it. Surprised because I didn't have any idea there were those in the Christian religion who not only knew of the rainbow body tradition but had studied it seriously from their own perspective.

It was very interesting to me that he had been so influenced by Teilhard de Chardin, whose work I was introduced when I was a senior high school biology student by an amazing Chinese Catholic nun who was my teacher. But I am not posting this to defend or debate Father Tiso's point of view. I have not listened to ths talk in more than a year but I think he does pose the question, "Could Jesus have attained the rainbow body?"

For your consideration:

http://noetic.org/library/sets/audio/ex ... cture-s/6/
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby jbaumannmontilla » Fri May 25, 2012 2:12 am

It's funny following this discussion this week, I've been reading Namkhai Norbu and Kennard Lipman's translation of Manjusrimitra, there's a passage that seemed to directly address the issue:

Just as the "Lotus-like Lord" of everything worldly
does not reject anything, (all things) are seen as
alike and present in utter sameness.
This very seeing as deceptive that which (is fundementally
not deceptive), is to be understood as
deception.
Even the teachings of the six (Hindu schools) and the
deeds of the Lord of limitations are not to rejected and
regarded as negative.
Since even engaging in skillful action and discernment
do not exist, engaging in them is like the [activity]
of the Lord of limitations.
Having become proud through taking one's understanding
as the best, superior to all, attachment and
aversion arise, from which arguments come about.
This is lack of awareness. the real point is not seen.
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby pueraeternus » Fri May 25, 2012 2:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote: I fear that these type of dialogues may even produce some new examples.


"Fear is the mind-killer."

-- Bene Gesserit litany against fear


Or:

"Bless the maker and his water, bless his coming and his going, may his passing cleanse the world. may he keep the world for his people."
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri May 25, 2012 3:06 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
This is not a question of cynicism and it is certainly not a merely semantic distinction. It is merely separating the institutions that teach Dharma and shape the message into what we call Buddhism from the actual essential meaning of what is taught. I personally find it perilous NOT to separate them. Otherwise, all of the many fiascos like the Karmapa Controversy, Ahkon Lhamo, Pabongka, Kelsang Gyatso, etc. become a feature of Dharma, rather than just merely political machinations by the greedy and/or power-hungry within human institutions. Look at how critical Milarepa was of the monastic institutions in many of his songs...

:good: !
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri May 25, 2012 4:03 am

heart wrote:This thread is NOT about what ChNNR says, it is about how some of his students interpretation of his teachings, mainly Malcolm... stating that Dzogchen isn't a part of Buddhism (or Bon) or that there exist some inherent problem between Buddhism (or Bon) and Dzogchen...


Magnus,

I'm starting to think this is an issue of English not being your first language and Malcolm and others using kind of nuanced language, because neither Malcolm nor anyone else has said either of these things. The first main point seems to have been that Dzogchen is our primordial state (even though teachings that point it out are also called Dzogchen) while Buddhism is not our primordial state and aside from consisting of teachings, much of what people erroneously consider "Buddhism" is not necessarily Dharma but rather a variety of limiting concepts people have tacked onto the essence of the Buddha's teachings. That is all. There is absolutely nothing controversial, offensive, or difficult to understand about this.

The second main point was that since Dzogchen is an epithet for what is our primordial state, having that state clearly pointed out and getting advice on how to mature one's knowledge are the only things one absolutely cannot do without under any circumstances. Nothing else can be considered complete indispensable under any circumstances. This is undeniably true even if it really is in our best interests to make integrate any number of Buddhist methods with our Dzogchen practice. Do you not agree?
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Fri May 25, 2012 5:32 am

Adamantine wrote:I don't really want to keep debating this. I will just say, as a Buddhist, on the dawn of the sacred month of Saga Dawa demarcating the anniversary of great events of Shakyamuni Buddha's life such as his birth and enlightenment under the Bodhi tree.. I hope in this Dharma Wheel forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhists we can celebrate and rejoice in the great fortune we have to have met the Dharma in this life. Whatever expression of it we practice, or hold closest to our hearts: Dzogchen, Mahayoga, Six Paramitas, Pureland, etc. I believe the entirety of these transmissions is a great treasure for each of us, and for our world-system in general. I don't agree that just because some very human examples of samsaric downfalls have been exhibited within any lineage, whether Vajrayana, Zen, or Dzogchen, etc. that this in any way degrades the essence of the Dharma that these lineages hold.. Let us all come together to celebrate the great Samyaksambuddha of our world system and age. It is due to his kindness that any of us are practicing, including the precious Dzogchen teachings.

Namo Buddhaya!

Namo Dharmaya!

Namo Sanghaya!

Sarwa Mangalam!


:smile: on the spot.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby heart » Fri May 25, 2012 5:58 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
heart wrote:This thread is NOT about what ChNNR says, it is about how some of his students interpretation of his teachings, mainly Malcolm... stating that Dzogchen isn't a part of Buddhism (or Bon) or that there exist some inherent problem between Buddhism (or Bon) and Dzogchen...


Magnus,

I'm starting to think this is an issue of English not being your first language and Malcolm and others using kind of nuanced language, because neither Malcolm nor anyone else has said either of these things. The first main point seems to have been that Dzogchen is our primordial state (even though teachings that point it out are also called Dzogchen) while Buddhism is not our primordial state and aside from consisting of teachings, much of what people erroneously consider "Buddhism" is not necessarily Dharma but rather a variety of limiting concepts people have tacked onto the essence of the Buddha's teachings. That is all. There is absolutely nothing controversial, offensive, or difficult to understand about this.

The second main point was that since Dzogchen is an epithet for what is our primordial state, having that state clearly pointed out and getting advice on how to mature one's knowledge are the only things one absolutely cannot do without under any circumstances. Nothing else can be considered complete indispensable under any circumstances. This is undeniably true even if it really is in our best interests to make integrate any number of Buddhist methods with our Dzogchen practice. Do you not agree?


Sure, my English is bad. When you say Buddhism I understand this as the Buddha's Dharma. When you say Dzogchen I understand this as the same Buddha's Dharma. I even provided a source, the Vima Nyingthik, for this understanding. I note that the triple refuge is a part of the Thun's ChNNR teach. I note he is acting like a normal Nyingma master sending his son to Tibet to be enthroned as a Tulku and set him up as his successor. What am I missing?
You might be blind but there are already several people teaching Dzogchen without Buddhism in the US. Jax is one of them, I think he was recently banned from this forum, and I am not at all impressed with what he do and I doubt that it will have any benefit at all.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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