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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:31 am 
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We find a slightly different rendering in the Pali Mahāparinibbāna Sutta where it says:
"Therefore, Ānanda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. (Tr. vipassana.com)
Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaranā anaññasaranā, dhammadīpā dhammasaranā anaññasaranā.

How does this injunction from the Buddha square with Vajrayana in general?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:39 am 
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Jax wrote:
We find a slightly different rendering in the Pali Mahāparinibbāna Sutta where it says:
"Therefore, Ānanda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. (Tr. vipassana.com)
Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaranā anaññasaranā, dhammadīpā dhammasaranā anaññasaranā.

How does this injunction from the Buddha square with Vajrayana in general?


The only true refuge one has is one's own practice of Dharma. Ultimately there is no other refuge.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:16 am 
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Good answer Namdrol, but perhaps it would be more precise to say the only true refuge is one's own indestructible and changeless Nature as the Dharmakaya. It requires no "practice" to be what you changelessly are. The one taking refuge would be the assemblage of the five skandhas, as sem or ego. The concept of "refuge" is itself a product of afflicted conceptualization. Are you really seeing/living from the perspective of Ati?

You also mentioned"abomination" earlier... That sounds like your mind is still plagued by the demon of believing in "good and bad", "better and worse". The non-dual vocabulary of rigpa does not include such words as "abomination". The other vocabulary available would be that used by sem. What happened to "nyamnyid" as same taste wherein all appearances are equal in value?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:35 am 
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Jax wrote:
You also mentioned"abomination" earlier... That sounds like your mind is still plagued by the demon of believing in "good and bad", "better and worse". The non-dual vocabulary of rigpa does not include such words as "abomination". The other vocabulary available would be that used by sem. What happened to "nyamnyid" as same taste wherein all appearances are equal in value?


Sounds like YOUR mind is still plagued with the demon of believing in "good and bad", "better and worse" yourself, being that you're rejecting the use of a conventional expression of language like "abomination". What did happen to "nyamnyid" Jax? Falling victim to your own projection! You can't be serious!

As soon as linear language and concepts come into play acceptance/rejection, good/bad, better/worse are automatically present.

And the "non-dual vocabulary" of rigpa vs. "the other vocabulary" of sems? Talk about duality! Not to mention the "non-dual vocabulary" of rigpa does not include such words as "abomination"? More acceptance and rejection. Funny that it would also be acceptance and rejection to reject "the non-dual vocab" of rigpa rejecting "abomination". There's no escaping duality in language. It's naturally fragmented.

Luckily for us duality is an illusion. And that being the case you should know better, teacher.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:54 am 
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Sun, I never rejected anything, you missed the whole point. As rigpa, notions as abomination along with it's emotional flavor, never arise as Rigpa takes no position regarding better or worse. Sem is not present in rigpa , hence such concepts as abomination would only arise from the mind being in a confused state.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:16 am 
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In Vajrayana and Dzogchen we are electric lamps. We don't work without electricity.

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:23 am 
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Jax wrote:
Sun, I never rejected anything, you missed the whole point. As rigpa, notions as abomination along with it's emotional flavor, never arise as Rigpa takes no position regarding better or worse. Sem is not present in rigpa , hence such concepts as abomination would only arise from the mind being in a confused state.


My point was that when it comes to interacting with each other and/or expressing ourselves, obviously using language to communicate, dualities are completely unavoidable... 100% part and parcel. In discussing anything dualities are implicit, even if an antonym of abomination (such as beautiful) was chosen it'd still be a naturally dualistic statement. In the actuality of rigpa these positions may not be present, but in speaking about rigpa (conventionally) they naturally come through... but honestly that's neither here nor there, I don't think anyone claimed to be abiding in the natural state (and even if they were it's still besides the point).

In my opinion, it makes no sense to fire on someone for making a statement reflecting how they (and others) feel because it contradicts the actuality of the natural state. And for the record I didn't miss the point, I understood what you were trying to say. It's just throwing rocks in a glass house. I disagree that such concepts (as abomination) would only arise from the mind being in a confused state, they arise from the implementation of language for communicating, and there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't reflect the level of ones realization or anything of the sort. In stories Guru Rinpoche used to vaporize his enemies... Drukpa Kunley used to go around enjoying alcohol and women... so words definitely don't contradict the natural state. Again, I have no contention towards you... but you spend an awful lot of time negating the "confused state" (because everything is the dharmakāya) to state that the implementation of a concept like "abomination" would only arise from an afflicted mind.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:17 am 
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Jax wrote:
Good answer Namdrol, but perhaps it would be more precise to say the only true refuge is one's own indestructible and changeless Nature as the Dharmakaya. It requires no "practice" to be what you changelessly are. The one taking refuge would be the assemblage of the five skandhas, as sem or ego. The concept of "refuge" is itself a product of afflicted conceptualization. Are you really seeing/living from the perspective of Ati?


Are you really B.S.ing your self, or do you really think that this back-and-forth, absolute when it concernes others and relative when it concernes your self, is up to the level of ours discussions? also when you use a lot of intellectualism in between ...

Good answer Namdrol, but perhaps it would be more precise to say
Condescending to explain to a "not bad" students like Namdrol, the way things are ... it has a bad odor.

Are you really seeing/living from the perspective of Ati?
To live from the perspective from Ati ... what that means ? what is a perspective within Ati? is it to play the intellectual game to explain that everything is of one taste, that there is no other and few more things picked up in books?

Dear Jax, you may have had many teachers, you may have received many teachings, you may even once had some understanding ... but somewhere you've took a very false way and now you try to float, keeping your old dreams up like if you were still "someone" ... distressing

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Good answer Namdrol, but perhaps it would be more precise to say the only true refuge is one's own indestructible and changeless Nature as the Dharmakaya.


Yes, if you want to go the Sutrayāna route, you might say this.

Still, Primordial Buddhahood is useless if it does not lessen your faults.

Nevertheless, if one does not practice, one will not realize anything and one will just remain an ordinary afflicted sentient being.

You do accept that there are such things, no matter how illusory, correct?

And you do accept you are one, correct?

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Jax wrote:
What happened to "nyamnyid" as same taste wherein all appearances are equal in value?


All appeareances are equal in value.

But when people are not properly taught, they are cut off from the possibility of realization and that is an abomination.

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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Just a side note: in the Bible there is a very similar saying. Jesus said something like "You must be like lamps in the top of a mountain, illuminating everyone around you."


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:58 pm 
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The people that The Buddha told that to, they had a very good teacher!!
Find a good teacher, and that teacher will show you how to put those words of the Buddha into practice.
No contradiction between Pali texts & Vajrayana.
.
.
.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Jax wrote:
Good answer Namdrol, but perhaps it would be more precise to say the only true refuge is one's own indestructible and changeless Nature as the Dharmakaya.


Yes, if you want to go the Sutrayāna route, you might say this.

Still, Primordial Buddhahood is useless if it does not lessen your faults.

Nevertheless, if one does not practice, one will not realize anything and one will just remain an ordinary afflicted sentient being.

You do accept that there are such things, no matter how illusory, correct?

And you do accept you are one, correct?


No Namdrol,"sentient beings" are just a mental construction arising within the space of the Dharmakaya, like reflections in a mirror. And the notion of there being "faults", is equally illusory.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Jax wrote:

No Namdrol,"sentient beings" are just a mental construction arising within the space of the Dharmakaya, like reflections in a mirror. And the notion of there being "faults", is equally illusory.


Jax, you say "no Namdrol," as if you are going to contradict anything he has said. But you don't. You just completely missed the point altogether.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Obviously the man does not consider himself a "sentient being" and believes that he is without "fault". :shrug:
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Namdrol said: "But when people are not properly taught, they are cut off from the possibility of realization and that is an abomination.". No Namdrol, no one is ever cut-off from the possibility of realization. The Great Perfection is always doing it's "perfecting" in all experience. You can relax, the Perfect Mandala of the Dharmakaya, otherwise known as our "ordinary life", is never even one centimeter separate from it's Source... Love to you my friend!

Dogen Zenji, Zen Master from the 13th Century. (Japanese Soto Zen) expresses this understanding of Awareness well:
 
Primordial Awareness is in essence perfect and pervades everywhere. How could it be dependent upon what anyone does to practice or realize it? The movement of Reality does not need us to give it a push. Do I need to say that it is free from delusion? The vast expanse of Reality can never be darkened by the dust of presumptions. Who then could believe that it needs to be cleaned of such dust to be what it is? It is never separate from where you are, so why scramble around in search of it?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Namdrol said: "But when people are not properly taught, they are cut off from the possibility of realization and that is an abomination.". No Namdrol, no one is ever cut-off from the possibility of realization. The Great Perfection is always doing it's "perfecting" in all experience. You can relax, the Perfect Mandala of the Dharmakaya, otherwise known as our "ordinary life", is never even one centimeter separate from it's Source... Love to you my friend!


now I'm sure you are stupid ... when people are not properly taught, also the Great Perfection, Dharmakaya, the Base and so on, are are still perfect in any experience, unchanged, they do not perceive it, they are deluded, and therefore they are cut off from the possibility of realization and that is an abomination. So you can relax (which is always good), bet even if the Perfect Mandala, blablabla and so on is never separate from it's source, also in your ordinary life, you are deluded when not properly taught, and you are cut off from the possibility of realization and that is an abomination.
LOve, not love, blablabla and others concepts!

Quote:
Dogen Zenji, Zen Master from the 13th Century. (Japanese Soto Zen) expresses this understanding of Awareness well:
 
Primordial Awareness is in essence perfect and pervades everywhere. How could it be dependent upon what anyone does to practice or realize it? The movement of Reality does not need us to give it a push. Do I need to say that it is free from delusion? The vast expanse of Reality can never be darkened by the dust of presumptions. Who then could believe that it needs to be cleaned of such dust to be what it is? It is never separate from where you are, so why scramble around in search of it?


Because Zen is sutra a teaching, therefore leading to sunyata, I would not comment ... we are in the Dzogchen Forum.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Jax wrote:
No Namdrol,"sentient beings" are just a mental construction arising within the space of the Dharmakaya, like reflections in a mirror.


How do those those mental constructions come about according to you (I am perfectly familiar with what Dzogchen texts say)? Do mental constructions merely arise from themselves without a cause, or do they have a cause?

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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Namdrol said: "But when people are not properly taught, they are cut off from the possibility of realization and that is an abomination.". No Namdrol, no one is ever cut-off from the possibility of realization. The Great Perfection is always doing it's "perfecting" in all experience. You can relax, the Perfect Mandala of the Dharmakaya, otherwise known as our "ordinary life", is never even one centimeter separate from it's Source... Love to you my friend!

Dogen Zenji, Zen Master from the 13th Century. (Japanese Soto Zen) expresses this understanding of Awareness well:
 
Primordial Awareness is in essence perfect and pervades everywhere. How could it be dependent upon what anyone does to practice or realize it? The movement of Reality does not need us to give it a push. Do I need to say that it is free from delusion? The vast expanse of Reality can never be darkened by the dust of presumptions. Who then could believe that it needs to be cleaned of such dust to be what it is? It is never separate from where you are, so why scramble around in search of it?


Dogen also said "Although the Way is complete in everyone, realization of the Way depends on a combination of conditions."

and

"Truth is not greater or lesser, but people are shallow or deep."

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Good answer Namdrol, but perhaps it would be more precise to say the only true refuge is one's own indestructible and changeless Nature as the Dharmakaya. It requires no "practice" to be what you changelessly are. The one taking refuge would be the assemblage of the five skandhas, as sem or ego. The concept of "refuge" is itself a product of afflicted conceptualization. Are you really seeing/living from the perspective of Ati?

You also mentioned"abomination" earlier... That sounds like your mind is still plagued by the demon of believing in "good and bad", "better and worse". The non-dual vocabulary of rigpa does not include such words as "abomination". The other vocabulary available would be that used by sem. What happened to "nyamnyid" as same taste wherein all appearances are equal in value?


'Changeless' and 'primordial' are contradictory, just part of much flamboyant sophistry.

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