The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:45 pm

Without direct introduction you simply miss this recognition. It's very easy to miss. People that don't receive it miss it because they don't know what it is, what they should recognize. So they take something else for it, always a fabrication. Only someone who is able to remain in rigpa can give you direct introduction. Only someone who can access your state can confirm you got it. This is why an attained teacher is vital to the practice of Dzogchen. It's not difficult to understand, I think.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Jax wrote:
Isn't Longchenpa pointing to the fact that Awareness (rigpa) cannot be attained by training, practice or any efforts of any kind? He says that because Awareness is fully present right now. Its not hidden. He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary. Your cognitive presence that is experiencing, is the experience, of the five senses, as well as your thoughts and emotions...is this timelessly present Knowingness, that Norbu call pure "noticing". It's not more present after practice or study or transmission. Its the clear unchanging Awareness that appears as everything. Is it really so hard to notice that the Awareness he is speaking of is your present open and clear awareness just as it is?


No actually, what Longchenpa is talking about vidyā as dharmakāya.

Because vidyā is essenceless, because a substantial active agent is contradicted in the real state, and because it has always been naturally formed, there are no stages to train on, paths to traverse, mandala to create, empowerment to receive, path to meditate, commitments to protect, activities to accomplish and so on. There is no need create again what has already formed naturally. If it were necessary, conventionally designating natural formation as unconditioned would be invalid. Consequently, the dharmakāya would be perishable because it would be conditioned, and because it would have been made by causes and conditions.

The purpose of this statement is to point out that in reality there are no agent and actions so therefore these following things do not exist in vidyā, the dharmakāya. It does not mean that there is nothing to do. Most people are unaware that lhun grub means "not made by anyone". It means that vidyā cannot be fabricated, only recognized.

But Longchenpa does not say that introduction is unnecessary. On the contrary, chapter nine explicitly teachs introduction:

From the two systems in which naked vidyā is suddenly recognized, this is the introduction which does not depend on critical points. Since that stark, uninterrupted and uniform awareness (which does not move outwardly, grasp inwardly, rest in middle, is not fabricated with the mind and is without conceptual movement) exists at all times, by introducing it's naked arising within the state of the blessing at the time when the master and student are momentarily in the same state, starkness is seen nakedly. That alone can generate confidence in dharmakāya. The critical point is to sustain that state without meditation and without distraction.

Then of course there is the system of introduction that depends on six critical points.

However your contention " He even says in the same text that no "direct introduction" or realization is necessary." is proven to be false.

N

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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:00 pm

Good thread! Great comments and insights...  For me, I take Longchenpa at his word.  He means what he says. But in this case he is clearly speaking from the perspective of Rigpa without filtering for a lesser audience. He will adjust according to his audience and for what purpose. There are higher, middling and lesser capacities. This pointing out is clearly intended for the highest capacity to free up any remaining reference points regarding "some state" that needs maintainting beyond the always present Dharmakaya that is presenting itself from moment to moment as our current experience exactly as it appears.  I "do pointing out", "introductions" etc. Shamatha and Vipassana, all according to the capacity of the student. I am not saying " direct introductions" are unnecessary at all. It's the main skillful means of Dzogchen and Mahamudra. In my experience reading texts such as this one can trigger a sudden dissolution of subtle dualistic grasping revealing the ever present, non-dual Clear Light Knowingness. Do others experience the same?
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby heart » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:52 pm

I don't know what will happen with the Dzogchen transmission in the future but I do feel that certain predictions that Guru Rinpoche did about this is being fulfilled right now. I must say that I can't help but feel a certain sadness about this.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby CapNCrunch » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:26 pm

I don't know what will happen with the Dzogchen transmission in the future but I do feel that certain predictions that Guru Rinpoche did about this is being fulfilled right now. I must say that I can't help but feel a certain sadness about this.


My understanding is that there is *no* transmission, "essential" or otherwise, without working directly with a Teacher according to our capacity. There are of course 3 capacities of students, and maybe, just maybe there are once-in-a generation cases (The Wayne Gretzky's of capacity) that come along who are able to awaken with just one word, or a glance, or by reading a passage etc.

I've heard that ChNN has always hoped for a student like this, but that (up until the time I heard the anecdote) after introducing thousands of students, it hadn't happened yet. I'm not clear on the source of the story - so please forgive me if I have that wrong.

At the rate of entropy and decay in this degenerate age, it's not hard to imagine the sale of "Ancient and Secret MethodsTM" for only 4 easy payments of 19.95 at some point. I feel deeply saddened, even sickened at the prospect - although my teacher always says that if we misuse the teachings etc. that we only destroy ourselves and our own opportunity in this life.

There are four kinds of people. "Those who start in light, and end in light. Those who start in dark and end in light. Those who start in dark and end end in dark, and those who start in light and end in dark." I forget where I read that.

ChNN often says that one of the problems with Westerners understanding is that they are accustomed to techniques - and that there is this idea that you can "get" the technique or method from the teacher, and then you can just continue on by yourself using it - Like some kind of technology.

This understanding completely misses the nature of the transmission lineage, and the fact that realization is precisely the empowering flow that eventually comes from our ongoing connection to the lineage through the teacher and refuge in the 3 roots. As Yeshi Namkhai puts it, we "reflect into our Master's wisdom".

How can a tree bear fruit without its roots?

My sincere prayer is that we all are able to "end in light" and that while there is life and breath, be open to the gentle guidance and even correction of our precious teachers and those who travel with us on the path so that we don't squander this incalculably rare opportunity.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:28 pm

Jax wrote:In my experience reading texts such as this one can trigger a sudden dissolution of subtle dualistic grasping revealing the ever present, non-dual Clear Light Knowingness. Do others experience the same?


I still can't tell if verbiage you use such as "ever-present, non-dual clear light knowingness" is describing the all-ground or the natural state. The vague nature of a phrase like that in the context of this teaching can go either way. Especially to someone who's inexperienced and is genuinely seeking your insight to try and understand dzogchen. The vagueness of that terminology coupled with the way you present the "it's just this there's nothing to do" aspect of the teaching is recipe for disaster. A mere realization of the all-ground's characteristics along with one misinterpreting the non-causal nature of dzogchen as a form of literal complacency could potentially give rise to a false sense of attainment that prevents genuine realization.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:40 pm

Jax wrote: For me, I take Longchenpa at his word.


Obviously you do not. When Longchenpa citations are produced which directly contradict your mistaken assertions, you blithely ignore them.

Likewise with kun byed rgyal po citations that contradict what you state.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:50 am

Dear Namdrol, here's the text that verifies my quote:

From The Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission, Longchenpa, Padma Publications.

Page 190: first main paragraph:

Lonchenpa writes: "Since all phenomena are timelessly free, nothing need be done to free them anew through realization."

Next paragraph: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded. One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it. There is equalness because nothing is improved by realization or worsened by it's absence, so there is no need for any adventitious realization. And because there never has existed anything to realize- for the ultimate nature of phenomena is beyond ordinary consciousness- to speak of realization on even the relative level is nothing but deluded. What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."

Page 191: middle paragraph

"In this case what makes perfect sense in the Ati approach is the superior realization whereby one directly experiences the unobstructed state in it's nakedness, without relying on anything whatsoever. Since one does not experience separation from the essence of Awareness even for an instant, to say that is realized or perceived is merely to use a conventional expression."

These quotations are capable of freeing infinite numbers of Dzogchenpa's and others who have yet to see beyond the web of their own dualistic projections of "cause and effect" efforts. May all beings prosper!
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:36 am

Jax wrote: "Even the thought that freedom comes about through direct introduction is deluded.


Correct, the basis is always intriniscally liberated.

One strives to free this essence from whatever binds it, but nothing need be done to free it, for unobstructed Awareness, which has never existed as anything whatsoever, does not entail any duality of something to be realized and someone to realize it.


Correct, since the basis is always intriniscally liberated.

What can be shown at this point is the transcendence of view and meditation, in which nothing need be done regarding realization, nothing need be directly introduced, and no state of meditation need be cultivated. So there is the expression 'it is irrelevant whether or not one has realization'."


This is where you deviate in your understanding. The Tibetan text does not use the term "need". It says quite simply:

"Here, since it is demonstrated there is nothing to be realized, nothing introduced, beyond view and meditation, it is called "beyond realization and non-realization".

But the context of the sentence above is provided in the previous sentence:
"Because an object to realize is not established since that ultimate dharmatā is beyond mind, a so called "realization" in the relative is described to be solely a deluded concept."

This passage is not saying that introduction is unnecessary. It is saying that from the ultimate point of view, there is nothing to introduce. But from an ultimate point of view not only are there no sentient beings, there are also no buddhas. This point of view is not especitally profound. Even the Perfection of Wisdom sutras makes this point. So what?

Longchenpa is not saying that introduction is unnecessary. The context of this statement in general, in terms of the commentary as whole, comes after his description of the two types of transference, those of best capacity and those of medium capacity. Following this, he moves into a description of why Ati is considered unreasonable by those in lower vehicles since Ati is beyond cause and result.

But nevertheless, this does not mean that he considers introduction unnecessary. Quite the opposite in fact, given the shear number of introduction texts he wrote.

Incidentally, on his deathbed, Longchenpa never said "After I die, rely on chos dbyings mdzod". What he said actually was "After I die, rely on the Yangthig Yidbzhin Norbu" a.k.a. the Lama Yangthig.

N
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:55 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:It's not the primordial nature that is caused. But the reason why you can't rest in the natural state has causes. Like the wind that blows a cloud from blocking the sun isn't responsible for the sun shining. So we practice, even if such practice doesn't cause the natural state but allows us to recognize it. The sun is always shinning but if the clouds are blocking its light we still can't see it. When we cut through the clouds we aren't causing the sun to shine. But unless we do it, its light won't get to us. How come is this so difficult to understand? And don't tell me that the clouds are also the natural state as that would be abusing the metaphor. The clouds here mean our lack of ability to remain in the natural state.


Dechen please hang in here with me a second. There is no one who attains or maintains the natural state or rigpa. There is no entity to rest in the natural state. The one who would recognize or rest is just the assembly of five skandhas, sem. The skandhas are arisings in that uncaused Dharmakaya, who you are. There is no self to realize Rigpa, that's a contradiction of terms. A shift suddenly occurs where the perspective is that of the Dharmakaya, experiencing Itself as total experience without the least separation. Is this really so hard to intuit? It's a radically different perspective that has nothing to do with some entity "recognizing" some conceptual state and considering it special. It's not that there is nothing "to do", but rather there is no one to do it. Knowing this is a spontaneous flash of yeshe that is identical for "everyone". It ends all conceptual involvement in hallucinatory "cause and effect" paths.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby heart » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:22 am

Jax wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:It's not the primordial nature that is caused. But the reason why you can't rest in the natural state has causes. Like the wind that blows a cloud from blocking the sun isn't responsible for the sun shining. So we practice, even if such practice doesn't cause the natural state but allows us to recognize it. The sun is always shinning but if the clouds are blocking its light we still can't see it. When we cut through the clouds we aren't causing the sun to shine. But unless we do it, its light won't get to us. How come is this so difficult to understand? And don't tell me that the clouds are also the natural state as that would be abusing the metaphor. The clouds here mean our lack of ability to remain in the natural state.


Dechen please hang in here with me a second. There is no one who attains or maintains the natural state or rigpa. There is no entity to rest in the natural state. The one who would recognize or rest is just the assembly of five skandhas, sem. The skandhas are arisings in that uncaused Dharmakaya, who you are. There is no self to realize Rigpa, that's a contradiction of terms. A shift suddenly occurs where the perspective is that of the Dharmakaya, experiencing Itself as total experience without the least separation. Is this really so hard to intuit? It's a radically different perspective that has nothing to do with some entity "recognizing" some conceptual state and considering it special. It's not that there is nothing "to do", but rather there is no one to do it. Knowing this is a spontaneous flash of yeshe that is identical for "everyone". It ends all conceptual involvement in hallucinatory "cause and effect" paths.


Certainly didn't seem to end anything for you because here you are knee-deep in conceptualizations and thoughts all tangled up in affirmation and rejection and haggling about what is right and wrong.

/magnus
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:01 pm

Jax wrote:Dechen please hang in here with me a second. There is no one who attains or maintains the natural state or rigpa. There is no entity to rest in the natural state. The one who would recognize or rest is just the assembly of five skandhas, sem. The skandhas are arisings in that uncaused Dharmakaya, who you are. There is no self to realize Rigpa, that's a contradiction of terms.


There is no self to realize period in Dharma as a whole. Again, this is simple sutrayāna 101 stuff.

It's not that there is nothing "to do", but rather there is no one to do it.


So far you have shared nothing with us from Dzogchen teachings themselves. You have just shared a bunch of sutrayāna perspectives. The idea that there is really nothing to introduce is Sakyapa and Gelug idea, one the ChNN regularly laughs at. In Dzogchen there is something to introduce.

Your problem is that you are still hung up on the relative/ultimate dichtomy like a first year Zen student.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:29 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:... a cloud from blocking the sun isn't responsible for the sun shining. So we practice, even if such practice doesn't cause the natural state but allows us to recognize it. The sun is always shinning but if the clouds are blocking its light we still can't see it. When we cut through the clouds we aren't causing the sun to shine. But unless we do it, its light won't get to us. How come is this so difficult to understand? And don't tell me that the clouds are also the natural state as that would be abusing the metaphor. The clouds here mean our lack of ability to remain in the natural state.


Nice example here. Many people get caught up in the words. Look at the finger pointing to the moon!
There is no other way but meditation/merit, and no books or master can do that for us.

And when we are ready a master will show us.
But looking at the finger so much is only wasting time.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:07 pm

I don't wish to annoy you, Jax, but bellow Namdrol expresses my thoughts exactly.

Namdrol wrote:Your problem is that you are still hung up on the relative/ultimate dichtomy like a first year Zen student.


Seems to me you built a funny world trying to transpose the ultimate perspective to the relative. Of course this doesn't work and you end up in a strange world where things make no sense at all.
The fact that there's not a real self doesn't mean that the illusory self doesn't function. It does, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. It will be you who will practice. Yourself. It will be you who will use a set of illusions to cut through illusion. All the Buddhadharma is relative, not ultimate. Sadharma is the realization, not the path.

Imagine you are dreaming. In the dream you are a girl. This girl doesn't exist, yet you can't say that the experience of yourself as being her is not real. Let's assume that this girl, in the dream, can perform a set of actions, none of them real in fact, that lead her to wake up. There are known cases where people understand they are dreaming and can wake up. Nothing very uncommon. When you wake up, the girl was not real neither was any of the actions that lead you/ her to wake up. Still, they functioned. The girl functioned, the actions functioned and none of that was truly real. Now, this is a metaphor, so let's not abuse it. The waking up was a shift in understanding, in awareness, you name it, but the nature of your consciousness is the same, whether awake or asleep. But while you were asleep you didn't know that. You didn't even know you were having a dream. All those illusions were taken as real. You could have not performed those actions that lead you to wake up and keep dreaming. We can even imagine a sort of comatose state where the dream would go on indefinitely if you didn't perform some actions that allow you to understand 1) you were having a dream 2) you could wake up 3) you indeed wake up. During all that time, your identity, your actions, thoughts, your whole reality wasn't more than an illusion. Still, you felt pain, anxiety and so on and so forth. Even if the objects of experience aren't real, your experience of them is. Even if those steps you took while dreaming so that you could wake up where all illusions, even if the person taking them is nothing but illusory, they were tantamount so that you could realize you were dreaming and then you could wake up. Did they change the nature of your mind while you were asleep or awake? No. Does this render them unnecessary so that you can wake up? No.

From the above comparison, without wanting to abuse the metaphor, you can hint my point. Right now you are deluded. Even if you recognized instant presence. By the things you say, it doesn't seem so, but even if you did, you are still deluded. This means you are the girl in the dream, not the awake person. So you need those steps, that may vary due to your particular defilements, but there you have it. And even if this girl isn't real, as there's no real Jax, the fact remains that it will be Jax who will sit his illusory ass in the illusory cushion to realize that his illusions are just that. Are you getting my drift? ;)
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:48 pm

Dechen, thanks for your excellent sharing, however I had those same thoughts and teachings when I was a first year Soto Zen student and meditator in 1966. Much water has passed under the bridge since then. This most sublime insight of the Dharmakaya non -dual Wisdom (yeshe) is not the exclusive property of Dzogchen alone. Zen, Mahamudra and Theravada vipassana all come to the same realization of "kadag" or "stonpa nyid". This territory has been well traversed experientially over these many years of practice. When consciousness collapses into it's essential Nature, the oneness of emptiness and form, relative and Absolute becomes the now apparent primordial Wisdom of Self-Knowing Awareness. I most often write from that Space. I'll try to "dumb it down" ... Sorry for not communicating to you at a level that is easily understood. The fault is entirely mine ( whoever that is!) :smile:
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Adamantine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:04 pm

Jax wrote: I had those same thoughts and teachings when I was a first year Soto Zen student and meditator in 1966.


That sure sounds like an illusory self describing an illusory history. You have no problem referring to yourself and describing your past, but then you attack people here for using language in the same way, from a holier-than-thou perspective, as if they have no right to speak from the relative POV. You really appear to have a megalomaniacal complex Jax.. even HH Dudjom Rinpoche would always communicate in ways like "I don't really know, but it could be like this. . . " not like the pedantic condescending "I am the most realized Dzogchen Yogi in the world" way that you seem to, even though by all accounts HH DR probably was.

To use a couple excerpts from his last gTerma revelation


To perceive one's own worst faults oneself is most difficult.
Laying bare one's own faults is the essential point.



DO NGAG CHÖ P'UG TONG NYI NGO SHE KYANG
Though we know that Voidness is the ultimate teaching of both the Sutra and Tantra

TONG GO MA CHÖ RANG GYÜ RA TAR GYONG
We have no decisive understanding of it and our mindstreams have become as hard as horn.

NE LUG GOM GYI RANG TS'UG MA ZIN PAR
Unable to rest in the self–arisen meditation on Reality As It Is,

K'A KY'ER TA WE GYU 'DRE LUNG LA KUR
We pay mere lip–service to the View, throwing cause and effect to the wind.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:58 pm

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said that only in Dzogchen is emptiness fully explained. Something similar, if not the same, can be found also in the Longsal Cycle.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:59 pm

Jax wrote: I most often write from that Space.




You, Jax, are completely and entirely full of shit, in my not so humble opinion of course.
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Jax » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:03 pm

Nam, only my intestines... :smile:
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Re: The Essential Transmission by Longchenpa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:09 pm

Jax wrote:Nam, only my intestines... :smile:


No, completely and utterly, head to toe.
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