Dharma Wheel

I have been pondering on this for a long time. Time is supposed to be an illusion, so is space. Can someone explain what is the term 'timelessness' like in actual experience? And how is time created as an illusion? Thank you.

Illusion doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Illusions have to happen. But illusions have two characteristics: it happens, and it happens without substance.

Everything on earth occurs exactly in the same way with how illusions occur.

Time is also like that. Even you can say this is present time, but your previous present time and your current present time is already different. You cannot find any substance that can stand as this is the present time which is not changing.

By knowing in reality there is no time, whatever we say is purely created by this imagination.

wisdomfire wrote:I have been pondering on this for a long time. Time is supposed to be an illusion, so is space. Can someone explain what is the term 'timelessness' like in actual experience? And how is time created as an illusion? Thank you.

Time is believed to be composed of the past, present and future. Of these three, the past is past only in reference to the present and the present is present only in relation to the past, future is future only in reference to the present. So all three being interdependent, even for their very existence, it has to be admitted by sheer force of logic that none of them are real. Therefore, time is not.

Experience is the only criterion by which the reality of anything can be decided. Of the three categories of time, past and future are not experienced by any, except when they appear in the present. Then it can be considered only as present. Even this present - when minutely examined - reduces itself into a moment which slips into the past before you begin to perceive it, just like a geometrical point. It is nobody's experience. It is only a compromise between past and future as a meeting point. Thus the present itself being only imaginary, past and future are equally so. Therefore, time is not.

So your present wakefulness is always in this 'now', everything happens 'right now'... wherever you are or whatever you do, it is always 'right now'. Time, comes into being when thoughts which seem to be recalling a previous happening arise in this present moment and this thought(called memory) is then said to be commenting on 'the past'. However, all that is occurring, is an image arising 'right now' which seems to be representing "another time". Likewise, thoughts which seem to be projecting events which have not yet come to pass arise in this present moment and this thought(called an aspiration, hope or fear) is then said to be about 'the future'. However, all that is occurring, is an image arising 'right now' which seems to be representing "another time". Lastly, this present moment, is only the present moment in relation to the past and future, the past and future only being presently arising thoughts are never experienced as actual 'times' so therefore the present cannot be the present and time is seen as empty.

Every "moment" is the first moment that has ever been, but being that first would imply second and third, it's not the first or the last nor anywhere in between. It's an utterly timeless eternal 'now' (And even now only exists in reference to 'then' and is therefore negated).

Here is the teaching on the four great unchanging (essential points called) "nails."
(First) there is the great nail of the unchanging view:
This immediate present awareness is lucidly clear.
Because it is stable in the three times, it is called "a nail."
(Second) there is the great nail of the unchanging meditation:
This immediate present awareness is lucidly clear.
Because it is stable in the three times, it is called "a nail."
(Third) there is the great nail of the unchanging conduct:
This immediate present awareness is lucidly clear.
Because it is stable in the three times, it is called "a nail."
(Fourth) there is the great nail of the unchanging fruit:
This immediate present awareness is lucidly clear.
Because it is stable in the three times, it is called "a nail."

Then, as for the secret instruction which teaches that the three times(past, present, future) are one:
You should relinquish all notions of the past and abandon all precedents.
You should cut off all plans and expectations with respect to the future.
And in the present, you should not grasp (at thoughts that arise)
but allow (the mind) to remain in a state like the sky....

- Padmasambhava

Passed is memory, future is projection, now is only but that cannot be found.

Conditioned by thoughts we chase behind, no awareness, genuine peace, love can be.

Then by that chasing is said to striving ones: Passed time like what others say and what i know better, must be improved by telling words with the hope and striving they will be good, an expectation dwelling in future. Time in thoughts.

Fascination for structured knowing- memories/hopes, right now are the traps of suffering mind. As timelesness is not to describe, like "Peace". Therefore practice is crucial.

A very humble teaching once given out of deep love.

Time was what man invented to measure the hours of the day and night.

Or in a sense, if you're busy you have to "gauge" how much time you have to get here or there in your car - for example.

Wesley1982 wrote:Time was what man invented to measure the hours of the day and night.

Or in a sense, if you're busy you have to "gauge" how much time you have to get here or there in your car - for example.

it's a bit neurotic ... don't you think?
It seems that the only object of being able to gauge the quantity of time you need for a process is to stress if ever you do not "possess" enough of it ...

Sönam

Yea, it is. Some people seem to think they need a $700 dollar watch while others only need a cheap & affordable wristwatch. Not too much difference

... some don't need any watch at all.

Sönam

My grandparents on my dad's side have a Grandfather clock, pretty cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longcase_clock . . .

i guess time is all we have left....

I have just acquired a £3,400 Breitling watch - not my money I hasten to add, although it is now my 'safety net' if times get even more tough.

It is waterproof to 3,000 metres/10,000 feet.

I have a little attachment to this thing which cost a fortune and 'tears the day to shreds' (P.Gabriel).

I have no attachment to 'time' as I don't accept that it has a beginning or end, nor a 'present' to grasp at.

Just as I am unlikely to survive a dive of 3,000 metres, I am unlikely to outlast the watch. Or am 'I' ?

Time and space are relevant to the body, which is bounded by both. The mind is not.

wisdomfire wrote:I have been pondering on this for a long time. Time is supposed to be an illusion, so is space. Can someone explain what is the term 'timelessness' like in actual experience? And how is time created as an illusion? Thank you.

I wonder how many times, if at all, the term "timelessness" is actually mentioned in Dzogchen texts...

wisdomfire wrote:Can someone explain what is the term 'timelessness' like in actual experience?

I would say that in order to have an experience, you need time. And sense of time is the distinction we make between two experiences. But then the distinction is also an experience...

What creates the illusion of time?
Outside of the mind, where do illusions of time exist?
.
.
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:What creates the illusion of time?

the biological body "clock?" . .

Outside of the mind, where do illusions of time exist?
.
.
.

For example, someone can be under pressure to get to work on "time."

This creates stress in rush hour traffic ~ if I don't get to work on "time" my boss will take note.

1.
A snail, a cat and a hummingbird are all in a garden at the same time.
Each perceives their own movement as "normal speed"
but the cat sees the snail moving very, very slowly
and sees the hummingbird moving very, very quickly.

The hummingbird sees the cat moving very, very slowly, the way the cat sees the snail.
The hummingbird cannot perceive the movement of the snail at all.

The snail sees the cat moving very, very quickly,
the way the cat sees the hummingbird.
The snail cannot perceive the hummingbird at all.



2.
Two snails go to a garden to watch the flowers bloom.
"OoooooH! says the first snail, "that one was great!"
"Oh darn!" says the other snail, "I blinked!"

3.
Go watch an hour hand move on a clock. You can do it, but you have to slow down your rate of perception.

4. Go to a big grocery store early in the morning when they are putting the bananas out for sale.
They are often green when they come out of the boxes.
But if you watch for about 10 minutes sometimes you can actually see them gradually turning yellow.
.
.
.

PadmaVonSamba wrote:What creates the illusion of time?
Outside of the mind, where do illusions of time exist?
.
.
.

marigpa ...

The illusion of time is created by our inability to perceive all of reality at once.

wisdomfire wrote:I have been pondering on this for a long time. Time is supposed to be an illusion, so is space. Can someone explain what is the term 'timelessness' like in actual experience? And how is time created as an illusion? Thank you.

answer is no-one knows, because we're pretty much at the stone-age stage of our cognitive sciences. (we only recently abandoned lobotomies as a valid procedure). the analogy/metaphor that made the most difference to me, in terms of being able to integrate a lot of different material using it, went as follows. (if it helps you, great. it helped me to grapple with these ideas.)

imagine you enter a dark room, filled with objects, armed with a torch. you switch the torch on and see a teddy bear. then you point it up and see a ceiling. then you point it down and see a magazine. because the torch was pointed sequentially, you experience a sequential awareness of teddy bear, ceiling, magazine, proceeding after each other. this is subjectively experienced as time (because of the subjective experience of "before" and "after"). however, no such actual, absolute time exists, because the objects (teddy bear, ceiling, magazine) all existed at all stages. (they didn't flicker in and out of existence when we shone a light on them). this is simply easier to accept with objects, because we commonly attribute an ongoing pervasive existence to objects, that we don't commonly attribute to events. the key is to understand that the same rules apply to events as to objects, and that when we shine the torch of attention on a sound, rather than a sight, it would be as intrinsically timeless (and subjectively sequential) as the object/sight.

for example, see how we are likely to expect a bird to have a continuous existence across days, but a bird-song not to. in our common categorization of experiences, "bird" is an object, and "song" is an event. the reality is that "objects" have no more weight and reality than bird-song (nor any less). they just take longer to fade away, and the sense data about them (sight, on the back of waves) persists for much longer than the sense data about song ("sounds", on the back of waves). so, if we understand that ALL our objects are actually events (or processes) of differences strengths and duration, then the dark room is actually filled with timeless possibility (or emptiness), possibilities that we assemble and collapse into so-called events and objects, under pressure from karma.

fwiw, it makes sense to me that we attribute pervasive continuity to objects mainly because of sight. sight is a largely pervasive sense and our sight experiences guide us to have tactile experiences (move our arms and legs) that we interpret as depth, extension and dimension. the pervasiveness of sights is so much greater than that of sounds that we arbitrarily relegate sound experiences to the category of "event". the reality is that it is ALL events, and the reificaton of light and waves into objects and events by itself produces time subjectively.

anyway. hope it helps.

d