Dzogchen and Free Will

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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby pensum » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:00 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamikakarika, this is the Karma-karaka-pariksa, which analyzes action and agent, or doer and deed if you prefer.


Can you recommend a translation? I have Garfield's translation of "Ocean of Reasoning" which hasn't proven to be exactly easy to parse...


Glad you found a bit of clarity amongst the usual kerfuffel.

Stephen Batchelor's translation of Nagarjuna can be found at http://www.scribd.com/doc/87726659/nagarjuna-mulamadhyamakakarika, though i'm not sure i would count it among the most readable. The two versions I have are by David Kalupahana and Kenneth Inada. Nagarjuna is always a slow read, but worth the effort. It is not without reason that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche regularly teaches it. if you scroll through this translation of Candrakirti's hefty commentary you may find a few things of interest as well: http://www.scribd.com/doc/11432756/Madhyamakavatara

all my best.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:32 am

I think this has been an amazingly interesting thread! We may not have noticed that this topic of agency and free will is getting right to the fundamental point that separates Dzogchen from the lower yanas. Our Natural State is an ever present living, vivid awareness or perceivingness that is ALWAYS the place from which we are viewing. The belief in agency or free will has no meaning or significance to this pure naked "noticing". The Dharmakaya is what's noticing in duality or non-duality. When colors are seen, that which notices the sensory experience is this primordial "noticing" or Rigpa. When the noticing recognizes itself that is the yeshe of Rigpa, rang jyung yeshe. There is no need to alter or adjust experience or mental activity in any way. Simply the noticing of your current condition as-is, is this unchanging primordial Knowingness of the Dharmakaya. It's hysterical when you realize the quality of your simple noticing awareness that is present under all circumstances is your primordial Dharmakaya Awareness, recognizing this obviousness is Rigpa. The "problem" is that it's too simple to believe that our always present clarity of observingness is the Dharmakaya! It's what is observing or experiencing, yet it is unmodified by all experience, like reflections having no impingement upon the glass of the mirror in which they are arising. From either this being "pointed out" or "introduced" a cognitive shift takes place suddenly and unmistakenly... Like a flash of lightening it's completely Known. And what's known is that your already present "naked noticing" has always been all that you are. Timelessly present in samsara or nirvana, whether asleep or awake. Nothing improves it or obscures it. If there seems to be an obstacle, that very "noticing" of your conceived "obstacle" is also It! Let me know if this makes any sense at all... :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:43 am

Jax wrote:...Our Natural State is an ever present living, vivid awareness or perceivingness that is ALWAYS the place from which we are viewing.


I'm not contesting this to be contentious or anything, but if the natural state was merely this vivid awareness or perceivingness then what would the purpose of these teachings be? And to say that the natural state is this "place from which we are viewing" actually localizes the natural state to 'here'... and is also saying that vision (as a mode of sensory perception) originates from a certain location(which granted is common sensical to most people, but is not applicable in the context of the natural state).

Jax wrote:The Dharmakaya is what's noticing in duality or non-duality. When colors are seen, that which notices the sensory experience is this primordial "noticing" or Rigpa. When the noticing recognizes itself that is the yeshe of Rigpa, rang jyung yeshe. There is no need to alter or adjust experience or mental activity in any way.


Positing a 'that' which notices sensory phenomena and apprehends appearances such as color is the general feeling that most people experience everyday, that can't be the natural state either, it suggests the observer-observing-observed trifecta which is the cornerstone of dualistic perception and it's processes. Also, "that which is noticing" sounds too much like a substantiated awareness with the way you word your insight regarding this faculty. And if there's "no need to alter or adjust experience or mental activity in any way"... then why isn't liberation manifesting for the majority of those who in fact do go about their lives without altering or adjusting their experience or mental activity in any way? Following your logic there should be no reason for the Dharma at all... for the Dharma would be akin to teaching a fish how to swim.

Jax wrote:Simply the noticing of your current condition as-is, is this unchanging primordial Knowingness of the Dharmakaya. It's hysterical when you realize the quality of your simple noticing awareness that is present under all circumstances is your primordial Dharmakaya Awareness, recognizing this obviousness is Rigpa. The "problem" is that it's too simple to believe that our always present clarity of observingness is the Dharmakaya! It's what is observing or experiencing, yet it is unmodified by all experience, like reflections having no impingement upon the glass of the mirror in which they are arising. From either this being "pointed out" or "introduced" a cognitive shift takes place suddenly and unmistakenly... Like a flash of lightening it's completely Known. And what's known is that your already present "naked noticing" has always been all that you are. Timelessly present in samsara or nirvana, whether asleep or awake. Nothing improves it or obscures it. If there seems to be an obstacle, that very "noticing" of your conceived "obstacle" is also It! Let me know if this makes any sense at all... :namaste:


I'm not trying to nitpick at you, I'm really not, any criticism I'm giving is without the least bit of contention, I have nothing against you at all and I'm glad you partake in adding insight to this forum. My refutation is only in the theme of seeing that correct view is propagated so that as many individuals who are interested in this teaching can benefit from it and are blessed with the ability to access their perfection. The issue is that you either understand this teaching and completely choose the wrong way to describe it, or you don't understand it and your misunderstanding comes through in your insight.

Jigme Lingpa sets up the main part of his The Words Of The Omniscient One not with his own instructions, but with those of an imagined teacher of the simultaneous method, in order to subject the statements of this teacher to criticism. He begins with this advice from the imagined teacher:

Those meditators who are fatigued by the penance of solitude and the burden of things to be counted and the teachers who support them are a long way from the definitive secret, the truth of the Great Perfection. If they can come to the place of the ultimate truth of meditation, just by recognizing stillness and just by recognizing movement, there is no need for any other kind of contemplation.

To which Jigme Lingpa(as himself) replies with:

"Although you may achieve an initial acquaintance with the realization of the great ascension to ever-purity by throwing everything out at once as stated above, you will not really have come close to it."

Later in the same text Jigme Lingpa quotes a passage from Longchenpa's Lungti Terdzö in which much the same criticism is made:

The sage oriented toward realization who explains to every flawed person with little merit he meets, "The genuine realization that whatever arises is the nature of the dharmakāya is itself self-arisen wisdom," and, "Absorption is accordingly nescience and manas," teaches what is tantamount to a fabrication that seduces beings. Because of this, one sees [disciples] who are cut off from the profound Dharma, which will not be found elsewhere. Such a teacher is a thief of this vehicle. There are many appearing nowadays.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:09 am

asunthatneversets wrote:I'm glad you partake in adding insight to this forum.


May I suggest that I do not agree with you. My view is that forum is now polluted. Why it is polluted instead of simply a place for debate? because one is using much intellectualism and power and views of the one who knows to impose his restricted point of view as a standard, fishing in Longchen Rabjam's varied explanations to prove this is the easiest, simpliest way, often much contradicting himself in oneside explaining that there is no viewer and in another side providing a lot of point of view, on a very doctoral tune.
Dzogchen is not a place for heavy intellectual debates ... so may I suggest to simply change the name of that forum? it would be in accordance with the new "so easy go that you can't imagine it is so" approach of ati.

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:09 am

Dear Sun and Sonam, I only suggest that you read Lonchenpa's Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission from his Choying Dzod. I would read it several times (over 400 pages) and really contemplate the meaning line by line. No other Dzogchen teachings are necessary, it is a complete handbook outlining the view and has the power to awaken Rigpa in the sincere reader. By doing so you will see that everything I share is in total accord with the actual view. I challenge you to point out one statement that i have made regarding the "view" of Dzogchen that is inaccurate or misleading. Please remember that i have the transmissions and practice instructions for Semde, Longde and Mengagde, and Yangti from Norbu Rinpoche several times, since 1985, as well as the full transmission and practice instructions for Shardza' Rinpoche's teacings of trekchod and thogal from the Menri Lopon. I have received many other Dzogchen transmissions from other masters as well such as Lama Wangdor. I began studying Dzogchen texts in 1978. I appreciate your criticism, so please take the opportunity to rectify my errors. But let's take one point at a time and discuss that one point alone instead of lumping several generalizations together, ok? Also seek out what i am pointing to rather than focusing on your personal critique of my style of expression. I have only great respect for your sincere appreciation for the Dzogchen teachings, and find great benefit for the readers of your posts.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:05 am

Dear Jax,

Jax wrote:Dear Sun and Sonam, I only suggest that you read Lonchenpa's Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission from his Choying Dzod. I would read it several times (over 400 pages) and really contemplate the meaning line by line. No other Dzogchen teachings are necessary, it is a complete handbook outlining the view and has the power to awaken Rigpa in the sincere reader.


I suggest you to imagine that I've read all the Longchen Rabjam's litterature available in english ... and in french (thank you P.Cornu and J-L.Achard). And not only Longchen Rabjam but also others Gread Dzogchenpa Master. Also reading is not the most difficult, it's only a question to recognize the letters.

By doing so you will see that everything I share is in total accord with the actual view. I challenge you to point out one statement that i have made regarding the "view" of Dzogchen that is inaccurate or misleading.


When you assimilate Rigpa to to the normal state, sems, it's a misconception of what it is, it simply corresponds to some kind of Yogachara view revisited ... As to point out that or that part of a text is a non sense and bring no where else than to discuss and prove that it exists "an other". I had my part of quotations, I've played those game for long and I have no reason to look outside what is already inside. Another reason is that my english is not fluent enough to play intellectual ping-pong games ... it could be different if you would speak french.


Please remember that i have the transmissions and practice instructions for Semde, Longde and Mengagde, and Yangti from Norbu Rinpoche several times, since 1985, as well as the full transmission and practice instructions for Shardza' Rinpoche's teacings of trekchod and thogal from the Menri Lopon. I have received many other Dzogchen transmissions from other masters as well such as Lama Wangdor. I began studying Dzogchen texts in 1978.


Your cursus and addition of instructions received by many masters only prove a compulsive approach ... and maybe the lack of real understanding. Otherwise why to run after another other when all is there ... as you explain it so well!
About the game who's first, I win ... my first introduction was in 1974 (and it tooks me years before I enter Garab Dorjé's phase 2)

I appreciate your criticism, so please take the opportunity to rectify my errors. But let's take one point at a time and discuss that one point alone instead of lumping several generalizations together, ok? Also seek out what i am pointing to rather than focusing on your personal critique of my style of expression. I have only great respect for your sincere appreciation for the Dzogchen teachings, and find great benefit for the readers of your posts.


I also appreciate the interest you have for dzogchen, with so many masters and all the litterature you may have accumulate in so many years I suppose it help to show as a master for those who are honestly searching.
As for having pointed your contradictions, I have done so at the very beginning of yours lectures in DW, while you were quoting Longchen Rabjam, I've quoted another text of this Master contradicting your certitude ... I did'nt receive any answer, you just went into another discussion, so I'm not someone to insist again and again, your non answer have been an answer. Maybe you read again all what has been said yet ...

May you live long
Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby daelm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:18 am

Namdrol wrote:
CapNCrunch wrote:...where does sin come into this?


Free will.

Sin is meaningless unless we have free will to choose to sin or not.

This issue is a complete non-starter in Buddhism.

Determinism is also irrevelevant in Buddhism.

We make our own karma, and we can put an end to it too.

Thus, the philosophical context for the question of free will never arises and thus it was never an issue for Buddhists and the issue never comes up as a topic of philosophy in Buddhism.



actually, there's an interesting way to parse Buddhism as being the journey to free-will. basically, absolute free-will means absolute autonomy. Buddhist goals are freedom from the constraint of karma (and therefore from imposed deluded experiences), and freedom from imposition and constraint is equivalent to autonomy. part of the reason that the issue never comes up in Buddhism is because Buddhism proposes a continuum of free will, ranging from "a little" to "absolute" and makes traversing that continuum the path.

what makes the concept more broken in the West is that we propose this either/or dichotomy - either complete free will, or none. Buddhism is just more realistic.


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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby heart » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:30 am

Jax wrote:Dear Sun and Sonam, I only suggest that you read Lonchenpa's Treasure Trove of Scriptual Transmission from his Choying Dzod. I would read it several times (over 400 pages) and really contemplate the meaning line by line. No other Dzogchen teachings are necessary, it is a complete handbook outlining the view and has the power to awaken Rigpa in the sincere reader. By doing so you will see that everything I share is in total accord with the actual view. I challenge you to point out one statement that i have made regarding the "view" of Dzogchen that is inaccurate or misleading. Please remember that i have the transmissions and practice instructions for Semde, Longde and Mengagde, and Yangti from Norbu Rinpoche several times, since 1985, as well as the full transmission and practice instructions for Shardza' Rinpoche's teacings of trekchod and thogal from the Menri Lopon. I have received many other Dzogchen transmissions from other masters as well such as Lama Wangdor. I began studying Dzogchen texts in 1978. I appreciate your criticism, so please take the opportunity to rectify my errors. But let's take one point at a time and discuss that one point alone instead of lumping several generalizations together, ok? Also seek out what i am pointing to rather than focusing on your personal critique of my style of expression. I have only great respect for your sincere appreciation for the Dzogchen teachings, and find great benefit for the readers of your posts.


Everyone here considers seems to consider themselves students of one or an other Dzogchen master. Doesn't matter if they received Dzogchen teachings years before you even heard the word Dzogchen or if they actually do teach Buddhism or Dzogchen. But not you Jax. I read what you written for many years now and it is obvious that you think you left behind being a student and evolved to being a Guru. My problem with that is that this is not the way I experience the tradition of Dzogchen. It seems to me that you are always a student and it is your Guru that insist you teach others. Because of this you also stay a student for life. My Guru told me for example how Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche prostrated and cried in front of his Guru's recently recovered collected writings and how he wouldn't be able to continue teaching because he was crying so much at the thought of his Guru's kindness. So what should I think when you openly criticize the same Guru's that you use as your reference? You criticize the way the teach and their activity in general. This is not the tradition of Dzogchen that I know of. On top of that I have seen you say that Zen many other things as well as a number of current newage self-proclaimed guru's are the same as Dzogchen. All summed together I don't think you are really a Dzogchenpa anymore. You are teaching something else while quoting Longchenpa and the Kunjed Gyalpo, no idea what it is. Also it seems to me, just like Sönam mentioned above, that you really don't want to discuss anything here at dharmawheel. So, no disrespect Jax, but since you bring up the subject yourself I thought I would tell you clearly that it is, at least from me, a little more than your personal style of expression that I have difficulties with in your posts.

FYI Jax was on esangha and other forums and mailinglists for a decade now just like me. If someone wonder how I know these things.

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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Sönam » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:50 pm

"If we have discovered our real nature and we are in that state, then we have self-liberation."

ChNN
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:49 pm

I would be glad to respond to any questions. I appreciate your opinions. But accusations are just that, accusations. Please conceive of the possibility that I may be approaching Dzogchen from a slightly different perspective than your own. I am comfortable with that. I am more than glad to substantiate any topic regarding Dzogchen view here. I am following the forum rules and protocol as best that I can. I think Sonam and Magnus would be best to email me here privately as I don't think this type of personal, character issue topic belongs on the general threads. I am fully open to explaining my position privately. I have received several supportive private emails here as well.
I think we exhausted this topic and recommend we either end this thread or get back on the "free will" topic. Ok? Much love to all... :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:44 pm

Jax wrote:I challenge you to point out one statement that i have made regarding the "view" of Dzogchen that is inaccurate or misleading.


People have, but you ignore them.

N
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:57 pm

Namdrol, unfortunately those challenging posts are often buried within a litany of critique and assumptions that really are most often too convoluted and rhetorical to respond. It would be great if there was one question, clean and simple quoting one of my comments alone that I can sensibly respond to. I have responded to many specific questions in great detail. I try to answer several points in one response that should clarify several related questions. I apologize if I missed some questions. I will try to do better... :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:16 pm

Jax wrote:Namdrol, unfortunately those challenging posts are often buried within a litany of critique and assumptions that really are most often too convoluted and rhetorical to respond. It would be great if there was one question, clean and simple quoting one of my comments alone that I can sensibly respond to. I have responded to many specific questions in great detail. I try to answer several points in one response that should clarify several related questions. I apologize if I missed some questions. I will try to do better... :smile:



Dzogchen fundamentally concerns how delusion self-embodies as sentient beings, and what the embodied sentient beings who have good fortune to meet Dzogchen teachings can do to reverse that delusion through which they are embodied. That is all. There is nothing more to Dzogchen than this. The principles involved in reversing that delusion require personal instruction from a master who knows what they are doing.

Dzogchen is based on a personal experience introduced by such a master. That experience cannot be commununicated in words to people who do not have that experience. It can only be demonstrated. This is why arguing about Dzogchen on internet forums is hopelessly deluded.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:20 pm

Namdrol, I disagree. Great benefit can come from discussions that clarify the insight and means to that insight. Much in terms of conceptual deconstruction of deluded self-deceptions can be accomplished. You have been doing that quite well here. Bows... To you! :twothumbsup:
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:55 pm

Jax wrote:Namdrol, I disagree. Great benefit can come from discussions that clarify the insight and means to that insight. Much in terms of conceptual deconstruction of deluded self-deceptions can be accomplished. You have been doing that quite well here. Bows... To you! :twothumbsup:


That is not Dzogchen, whatever else it might be, Madhyamaka, etc.

While certainly one can dispell uncertainty concerning such things as whether Dzogchen tantras promulgate this or that point of view, in the end, since Dzogchen is based on a personal experience, if one lacks that experience, then most Dzogchen teachings are either pure intellectual verbiage, like sems sde, or hopelessly obscure references that make no sense without having the intimate context of personal experience of the subject matter.

Of course talking about Dzogchen practice among practitioners who understand the teachings can help those of lesser capacity have deeper understanding, but that in general is not what is happening here. What is happening here is mostly lot of negation [dgag] and offering of proofs [sgrub].
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Fa Dao » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:22 am

Dzogchen fundamentally concerns how delusion self-embodies as sentient beings, and what the embodied sentient beings who have good fortune to meet Dzogchen teachings can do to reverse that delusion through which they are embodied. That is all. There is nothing more to Dzogchen than this. The principles involved in reversing that delusion require personal instruction from a master who knows what they are doing.

Dzogchen is based on a personal experience introduced by such a master. That experience cannot be commununicated in words to people who do not have that experience. It can only be demonstrated. This is why arguing about Dzogchen on internet forums is hopelessly deluded.

N


Namdrol, that has to be one of the most profound and sad things I have read about Dzogchen in a very long time. Sad because what is one supposed to do if one does not have access to that "personal instruction" you spoke of? (I am guessing that webcasts dont count as personal instruction)
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:34 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Dzogchen fundamentally concerns how delusion self-embodies as sentient beings, and what the embodied sentient beings who have good fortune to meet Dzogchen teachings can do to reverse that delusion through which they are embodied. That is all. There is nothing more to Dzogchen than this. The principles involved in reversing that delusion require personal instruction from a master who knows what they are doing.

Dzogchen is based on a personal experience introduced by such a master. That experience cannot be commununicated in words to people who do not have that experience. It can only be demonstrated. This is why arguing about Dzogchen on internet forums is hopelessly deluded.

N


Namdrol, that has to be one of the most profound and sad things I have read about Dzogchen in a very long time. Sad because what is one supposed to do if one does not have access to that "personal instruction" you spoke of? (I am guessing that webcasts dont count as personal instruction)


Webcasts do count as personal instruction. But you have to pay very, very close attention to what is being said.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:38 am

I agree Namdrol...

However, well placed "pointing out" can easily bring about an " aha" moment. That is the reason the great masters like Longchenpa and others wrote so extensively. Their writings like Tilopa's, Maitripa's, Saraha's and Niguma's to mention just a few, were meant to trigger a realization of one's Natural State. Their purpose was not just to lay out the company line like propaganda or mere academic polemic. We are living beings sharing live communication with each other. Let's value this resource for it's maximum benefit. I have had many people contact me personally sharing appreciation for what I am conveying. I personally enjoy exchanging communication with you and all the participants here. All that I have gained regarding Dzogchen has come through lineage transmission. I have not violated any samaya. I actually have never been asked to agree to any samaya by any teacher at any time. I always recommend individuals to gain lineage transmission wherever and whenever possible. I guess it's not clear to me why you post here if you feel it can't be of any real value regarding Dzogchen. I differ perhaps in feeling a responsibility to guide and share to the best of my capacity. Again, please point out any errors I may have made in discussing the view or practices of Dzogchen, and may I apologize in advance for such. I appreciate your knowledge and contributions greatly.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:19 am

Jax wrote:I agree Namdrol...

However, well placed "pointing out" can easily bring about an " aha" moment. That is the reason the great masters like Longchenpa and others wrote so extensively. Their writings like Tilopa's, Maitripa's, Saraha's and Niguma's to mention just a few, were meant to trigger a realization of one's Natural State.


Let us take for example the chos dbyings mdzod. This text is not literature in the commonly understood western idea of the term. This text is meant to be used as a tool for giving introduction by a qualified master. Once someone has received Dzogchen transmission in a proper way, then the text may be used in order to reinforce the meaning of the teachings. But it was never the intent of the authors of texts like Chos dbyings mdzod, the Shabar's Flight of the Garuda and so on that they be read in absence of proper transmission by a qualified Guru.

I actually have never been asked to agree to any samaya by any teacher at any time.


This is a misunderstanding on your part. While it is true that samaya in Dzogchen is not really a catechistic list such as one finds in Mahayoga and so on, everyone who is an authentic Dzogchen pracitioner from having received Dzogchen transmission has samaya. For example, all Dzogchen practitioners have a samaya not to take life. This is the fundamental samaya of the body. Dzogchen practitioners do have a fundamental obligation to observe the principles of basic human decency which is embodied in avoiding the ten non-virtues and adopting the ten virtues. Longchenpa, of whom you are fond, writes in the Ocean of Liberation which is from the Lama Yangthig:

Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great completion being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in samaya...

He then goes on to describe in great detail the 27 samayas of a practitioner of Dzogchen (body, speech and mind * outer, inner and secret * outer, inner and secret).

Such tantras as the sgra thal gyur, the rig pa rang shar and so on very clearly explain the meaning of samaya, how it must be kept, the fruit of keeping it, and consquences of not doing so.

Of course, if you choose to ignore samaya, that is your choice, and fundamentally the only person you are harming is yourself.


I guess it's not clear to me why you post here if you feel it can't be of any real value regarding Dzogchen.


There are some people who have received transmission from authentic lineage holders of the teachings of Dzogchen, and since I have developed the skill of reading Tibetan, and since I have access to texts normally unavailable to people or only avalable in translations of questionable merit, people sometimes find my contributions of value. But in general I do not fund my contributions concerning Dzogchen to be of any value whatsoever to people who have not received transmissions in a proper way. For example, many times people from outside the Dzogchen tradition ask me questions about what sets Dzogchen apart -- and they cannot find any answer that I give satisfactory, The reason of course is that I do not feel it is appropriate to discuss various topics with people who do not have transmission, who do not have the fortune to meet an authentic teacher of Dzogchen like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, Loppon Tenzin Namdak and so on, to name three, still living, masters of Dzogchen. Even were I to "tell all" they still will not understand because the nine yānas are all paths based on mind, where as true Dzogchen goes beyond mind and is based on wisdom from the very beginning. Further, this basis in wisdom is based on one's personal experience which arises from one's interaction with a guru, and not on any sort of intellectual analysis.

I differ perhaps in feeling a responsibility to guide and share to the best of my capacity.


There are many ways to act responsibly. My approach is encourage people to discover the value of Dzogchen teachings by first and foremost receiving transmission from a qualified master. Encouraging them to learn things like Song of the Vajra, and so on as detailed in the Tantras of the Sun and Moon. Encouraging them to keep up ganapujas offered to qualified masters, as is recommended quite clearly in the ultimate root tantra of Dzogchen, the sgra thal gyur, to encourage people to learn about the peaceful and wrathful deities which are crucial part of Dzogchen teachings detailed no less than twice in the Rig pa rang shar, etc. I encourage people to understand the length and breadth of the Dzogchen teachings. Sems sde is fine, but it is primarily confined to view. Those who want to go deeper must engage the Nyinthig teachings. And the details of Nyinthig teachings just are not appropriate for discussion in a public forum, just as it is not proper to run one's mouth about tögal in a bar.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Malcolm
 
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:15 am

Like I said Namdrol, I have not violated any samaya that I have pledged to honor, especially not any that I have never been told about by m teachers. What you are quoting is a mish mash of Dzogchen and Tantric precepts. Norbu has said numerous times that "if you want to know the real, authentic Dzogchen you must refer to the only Kama text we have, the Kunje Gyalpo." None of the contamination by tantric influence is present in KJG. Here the real Dzogchen view is made clear. Norbu said later teachings incorporated Tantric and Vajrayana elements in order to survive in a hostile world of Sarma power players who were doing their best to discredit Dzogchen as a valid Buddhist teaching. These are the words of your teacher. You also unjustly disparage the profound Semde lineage by relegating it to "mere intellectual" understanding. Semde has the same power as the Mahamudra tradition in being able to bring one to full and total realization. Did you forget the Four Yogas of Semde practice? Semde is a complete and perfect path. I teach from the Semde perspective as it is most attuned to the intellectual proclivities of Westerners.
Jax
 
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