Dzogchen and Free Will

Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Josef » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:27 am


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Thrasymachus
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Thrasymachus » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:56 am

This is not based on Dzogchen(then again you don't even live in a Buddhist influenced society like say Bhutan), but from my reading of various critics of Western teleological progress. Free will does not exist in our society, it has been debunked long ago by various thinkers. There are so many distal social forces and so many interlocking and mutually reinforcing highly complex systems at play you are really just a barely animated mannequin with a few options you can exercise. There is no free will as such. The choice matrix in the USA where I know you live, is like:
--work a job that likely nothing to do with the direct procurement of necessities(or only a very small part of their production and distribution) or starve from the lack of money to purchase the basics
--go to school or get arrested by the truant officer
--pay the mortgage/rent or some man backed by the threat of a gun will kick you out
etc.

You have so little social power over most decisions that affect you it is not funny. Most our society is geared around abstracting you into a fake reality of surrogate activities and surrogate reality, so you can ignore how ensnared and unauthentic the way you live actually is. If this was not the case you would be outside screaming, and when you went outside to do it, you would have found neighbors doing the same. Then you would have discussed and plotted what to do about it with them. But that does not happen because they developed techniques to prevent it.

A good way to summarize is you are a Capt N Crunch action figure in the bottom of the cereal, with a limited range of actual movement compared to even many people in past or alternative societies currently operated according to diametrically opposed values.

Jax
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:27 am

Someone suggested recently I teach a hodge-podge of Sufi, Zen, Advaita and new age practices. That's not true at all. I teach at first shamatha, vipassana, I emphasize much sitting practice in order to first relax the movements of mind and then to investigate the nature of thoughts and then the nature of self-identity. I then begin "pointing out" instructions while the individuals are meditating, in order that the mind being in a state of shine' can more easily recognize the ever present state of primordial awareness. When that recognition occurs, that is rigpa. I am looking for that insight to arise in each student or we continue working with clarifying recognition of the natural state. I then teach methods of trekchod such as "Sky Gazing" as the main practice to deepen and broaden the "clarity". We then learn and practice the postures of thogal, noticing the effect of just assuming the postures for various periods of time. After that I begin teaching basic thogal "sun gazing" practice.
We do daily gTumo practice as well. So that is what I teach at my retreats, which is quite different than the impression that others have given of what I teach. I wanted to make that perfectly clear. I always recommend that people first seek out transmission if possible, regarding Dzogchen. I am not here at Dharma Wheel to find students or promote what i do. I just am interested in interacting with people who are interested in approaching the teachings more from a practice perspective as opposed to pure literary discussions. If the discussions are outside the norms for Dharma Wheel, the conversations can be carried on with PM or private messages.
Last edited by Mr. G on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed Dzogchen practice related comments - inappropriate for an open forum.

Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Josef » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:25 am

bye

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Grigoris » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:32 am

You see, now he's playing the guru and divulging all sorts of information that may or may not be true. Now one would be justified in leveling various valid accusations.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby heart » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:41 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Adamantine
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:18 am

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:04 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

udawa
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby udawa » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:13 pm

Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

Dronma
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Dronma » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:39 pm

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~

Jax
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Jax » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:36 pm

I can understand your concerns. In my experience most Westerners have no interest in teachings grounded in the Tibetan religious and cultural milieu. So I and some others are presenting a generic approach to these teachings. Zen went through the same transition and still is. Great Freedom is another example but Candice doesn't acknowledge the source of her teachings, but its still good stuff. The evolution and flowering of a generic Dzogchen in the West is an exciting and challenging prospect. The other issue is that the lineage teachings are not presenting a format that allows real one on one access to the Guru in the intimate quality that maximizes the benefits. We have to work on that, just signing up and going to a retreat once in awhile is not functional without close instruction. It's a definite problem...

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Malcolm » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:54 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

pensum
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby pensum » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:54 pm

the subject of this thread reads "Dzogchen and Free Will", so i'm not exactly clear as to what Jax and everyone's opinion of him have to do with that, but you all seem quite further advanced along the path, both in understanding and embodiment, so i will trust that there is method in such apparent madness. if there is, then i apologize for interrupting such an enlightened conversation, but being somewhat more literally-minded i thought the following interview, which deals directly with the issue of free will, might once have been of interest:

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Adamantine
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Adamantine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:07 am

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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CapNCrunch
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby CapNCrunch » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:49 am


Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Simon E. » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:54 pm

" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Vasana
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby Vasana » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:40 pm


daelm
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Re: Dzogchen and Free Will

Postby daelm » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:33 pm

Free will is a necessary outcome of any successful practice. The nature of samsara implies dilution of autonomy. Release from such constraints implies autonomy.

The caveat, though, is that the notion of "free will" in non-dharma schemes, rests on the ability to act through channels - body, speech and mind - that are held in dharma to be the same factors that, unaddressed, constrain its achievement. All practice paths therefore attempt to address body, speech and mind, in different ways. According to dharma, notional free will in the normal conceptual schema (where free will is assumed to be actionable by means of the same mechanisms that prevent it) is therefore inextricably linked to its constraints.

Freedom from constraints is the goal of the path. But with that freedom from constraints, the world as you know it also collapses, included in which collapse are all concepts derived from those constraints. That includes "free will"

For example, in dharma, all the factors that inhibit free will such as a chimpanzee nervous system, modern social conditioning, latent emotional tendencies in an individual, a particular organization of mind and so on are all outcomes of karma. Illusions, basically, and inadequate for the task, in the form we find them in.

Therefore, in the form we find them in, they act as constraints, and every practice path works to address them.



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