I really try to follow to this thread, but I still cannot find the main issue that can separate the things into two approaches.
However, this question is important.
the great question will always remain... is it already naturally complete? Or do we have to see it?
being or seeing. this is an argument between natural being and prajna seeing/wisdom. it crops up time and again in buddhism, not just these threads.
If we see everything, positive, negative, and neutral emotions, feeling, etc., all of them MUST have this 3 nature:
1. All of them are empty - Dharmakaya.
2. All of them are clear, knowable, noticeable, "can be enjoyed" - Shambogakaya.
3. All of them can manifest freely without any obstruction - Nirmanakaya.
(There are slight difference between the definition of trikaya, here and there, but it is not important)
From trikaya perspective, everything has the same nature, no exception at all.
Whether it is anger, jealousy, or ignorance thought, all of them are having exactly the same nature with generosity, patience, concentration, etc.
When people see anger, and jealousy, they don't see the nature, which is trikaya. They see the story. Because they see the story, they misinterpret it as something bad, something poison, something that need to be completely eliminated.
Same thing, with positive thing.
When people see generosity, patience, etc, they don't see the nature, which is trikaya. They see the story. Again, because they see the story, they again misinterpret it as something good, something holly, something desirable, something need to be built to the maximum level.
It is very very difficult to see the nature. Because we react to fast to the story, when all of them pop-up, it is a dream for us to see their nature. We really do not have the gap between seeing the nature, and seeing the story.
Because we never see the gap, it is forever we will not understand their nature.
In tantra, to overcome this serious shortcoming, anger is representated by a buddha, jealousy is also representated by another buddha, pride is representated by another Buddha, etc.
There is a question here: All of them are poison, All of them are evil, All of them need to be get rid of. What are the reasons, they are representated by the Buddha.
Some people think oh by representating that anger, pride, jealosy, etc with certain Buddha, such as Amitabha, Ratnashambava, etc., that anger, pride, jealosy, etc. can be purified so, tomorrow, or next month, anger, pride, can never ever ever pop-up in my mind again.
That is a serious misunderstanding.
The purpose of representing all of those poisons with the Buddha is actually for us to think twice, not only twice, but thousand times, WHAT IS THE ACTUAL NATURE OF THAT POISON?
Buddha has a nature of clean, free of stain, empty, without any existence, without any defect, complete by nature, nothing can be add, nothing can be removed, appear yet empty, empty yet appear.
By representating all that poisons as Buddha, soon or later, if we practice properly, the gap between story and the nature, which previously we don't have, will now starting to open wider and wider. When the gap is getting wider and wider, we can pause, and now see, OH, the true nature of all of those poisons are actually EXACTLY SAME with Buddha nture.
My poisons are without self, complete by nature, perfect by nature, it doesn't need anything to be add, it doesn't need anything to be removed. THe BEHAVIOUR is EXACTLY same with the NATURE of BUDDHA.
Because everything has the nature of buddha, whether it is poison, neutral, or negative, ALL OF THEM are actually PRIMODIAL WISDOMS.
Because they are all primodial wisdoms, the label of poisons, negative, neutral, positive, holly, are actually extremely ridiculous. THEY ARE THE LABEL OF IGNORANT PEOPLE, who cannot see the nature of all of them.
Anyone, who can see the nature of the things, will never ever be affected by the story. Anyone who can see the nature of mirage, will never ever be affected by the story that the mirage is water.
Anyone who can see the nature of rainbow, will never ever be affected by the story that the rainbow is solid.
From the atiyoga point of view, not all people can jump straight away to the atiyoga, they need mahayoga or anuyoga, to bring them to the atiyoga view, where everything is complete.
Mahayoga, anuyoga, all of them have a modification. We visualize the deity, the mandala, and seeing all thoughts are actually mandala, etc. All of them are manipulation.
Because we ALWAYS see the story, instead of directly seeing the nature, the manipulation is then unavoidable, just to help and bring the attention of the practitioner from the story to the nature, which is trikaya.
Dzochgen (atiyoga), and Mahamudra (the 4th of yoga: Non-meditation) is the peak and ultimate of the view, just because our understanding have been so solid and so ripe, that we can see everything is primordial wisdom, that finally can let us do nothing, that can let us let things as what it is, without any need to modify, without any need to add, without any need to reduce, without any need to improve, without any possible effort you can think about.
You modify the things, they are trikaya.
You don't modify, they are also trikaya.
You remove your poisons, they are still trikaya.
You increase your holly thought, they are also trikaya.
Whatever you do, they are always trikaya. Perfect by nature. Always perfect by nature.
COmplete by nature, always complete by nature.
Doing nothing for someone, who haven't see the nature, is foolish.
Doing something for someone, who have see the nature, is like a person who know this glass is already perfectly clean, but he still clean it again and again. It is also foolish.
FOr the person who can see the nature of thing, for outsider he is doing something, but for himself, he do nothing.
For outsider, he is giving money to the beggar, but for him, he is not giving money to the beggar.
If you can see the nature (trikaya), everything is always complete, whether you understand it or not, it is always complete.
Whether you see the sun or not, whether you ever heard about the sun or not, the sun is always shining.
But if we only see the story, the opinion, thousand questions will haunt you.