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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:15 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
there are not really two approaches, because it is by realizing the first that the second is fulfilled.

Longchenpa, in chos dbyings mdzod says "although Buddhahood is timeless, there is awakening to Buddhahood anew." Basically this means that you can enjoy the ride without sweating it. The awakening anew part is just for fun, the ground/you just playing hide and seek with itself/yourself.



Khenpo Jigphun points:

"Even though the omniscient guru [Longchenpa] may have stated "Samantabhadra was liberated on the basis", if there is liberation on the basis there be the fault of once again cycling in samsara. Therefore, it is necessary that liberation is on top of the appearance of the basis."

N

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
there are not really two approaches, because it is by realizing the first that the second is fulfilled.

Longchenpa, in chos dbyings mdzod says "although Buddhahood is timeless, there is awakening to Buddhahood anew." Basically this means that you can enjoy the ride without sweating it. The awakening anew part is just for fun, the ground/you just playing hide and seek with itself/yourself.



Khenpo Jigphun points:

"Even though the omniscient guru [Longchenpa] may have stated "Samantabhadra was liberated on the basis", if there is liberation on the basis there be the fault of once again cycling in samsara. Therefore, it is necessary that liberation is on top of the appearance of the basis."


cycling in samsara is only a fault if your view is dualism. not sure what "on top of" is meaning here?

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:02 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:

cycling in samsara is only a fault if your view is dualism.



Please enjoy yourself then...even though it seems you have utterly missed the point that Dzogchen also just an attempt to solve the Buddhist question of how to stop cycling in samsara.

The answer to that question is not "Cycling in samsara? No problem, please continue...."

N

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:04 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
not sure what "on top of" is meaning here?


What Khenpo Jigphun is saying is that there is no liberation in the basis, liberation and non-liberation are only valid questions from the point of view of the arising of basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
not sure what "on top of" is meaning here?


What Khenpo Jigphun is saying is that there is no liberation in the basis, liberation and non-liberation are only valid questions from the point of view of the arising of basis.


no argument there.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:

cycling in samsara is only a fault if your view is dualism.



Please enjoy yourself then...even though it seems you have utterly missed the point that Dzogchen also just an attempt to solve the Buddhist question of how to stop cycling in samsara.

The answer to that question is not "Cycling in samsara? No problem, please continue...."

N


you can stop cycling in samsara if thats your predilection, its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:39 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?


This sounds to me similar to the simplistic hypothesis:
"God is perfect and good and almighty. How can his creations be not perfect, not good and not almighty?".
Is ignorance not a "fault" or "mistake"?
Have you ever been in a field of war?
Have you ever been in a hospital where the people are near death?
Have you ever been in a jail where the law of raw power dominates?
Do you know what is pain, fear, hunger, illness and paranoia?
I think that the proverb in English goes like this:
"Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you may have to eat them".

Flying too high in the sky without keeping touch with the earth, does not serve any Liberation - for yourself or the others.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:59 am 
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Quote:
how could anything that arises be a mistake


The view that phenomena arise is certainly a mistake. As the Heart Sutra says, "not produced or stopped."

It seems that you've fallen into the category error of seeing phenomena as mistaken or not, when actually it's our view of phenomena that is mistaken or not. Views can be mistaken, phenomena no.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:02 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
Quote:
how could anything that arises be a mistake


The view that phenomena arise is certainly a mistake. As the Heart Sutra says, "not produced or stopped."

It seems that you've fallen into the category error of seeing phenomena as mistaken or not, when actually it's our view of phenomena that is mistaken or not. Views can be mistaken, phenomena no.


a view is a mental phenomena.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:04 am 
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Dronma wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?


This sounds to me similar to the simplistic hypothesis:
"God is perfect and good and almighty. How can his creations be not perfect, not good and not almighty?".
Is ignorance not a "fault" or "mistake"?
Have you ever been in a field of war?
Have you ever been in a hospital where the people are near death?
Have you ever been in a jail where the law of raw power dominates?
Do you know what is pain, fear, hunger, illness and paranoia?
I think that the proverb in English goes like this:
"Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you may have to eat them".

Flying too high in the sky without keeping touch with the earth, does not serve any Liberation - for yourself or the others.


does this mean you are coming out as a Manichaen? I just want you to know I fully support your decision, and I promise I will not set up a webcam in your bedroom.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:29 am 
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Quote:
a view is a mental phenomena


A view is a proposition and not a phenomenon, either mental or physical.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:30 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
Quote:
a view is a mental phenomena


A view is a proposition and not a phenomenon, either mental or physical.


what then do you consider a mental phenomena?

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:00 am 
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They are listed in the abhidharma.

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:07 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
They are listed in the abhidharma.


then surely you know that among the 51 mental factors of the samskara skandha is "erroneous views" (lta-ba nyon-mongs can). These are considered dharmas, or "phenomena".

can we get back to the topic now?

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:17 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
its just that samsara is not a "fault" or "mistake". how could anything that arises be a mistake, since everything is ultimately traceable back into the ka dag, lhun grub and thugs rje of the basis?


This sounds to me similar to the simplistic hypothesis:
"God is perfect and good and almighty. How can his creations be not perfect, not good and not almighty?".
Is ignorance not a "fault" or "mistake"?
Have you ever been in a field of war?
Have you ever been in a hospital where the people are near death?
Have you ever been in a jail where the law of raw power dominates?
Do you know what is pain, fear, hunger, illness and paranoia?
I think that the proverb in English goes like this:
"Keep your words soft and tender, because tomorrow you may have to eat them".

Flying too high in the sky without keeping touch with the earth, does not serve any Liberation - for yourself or the others.


does this mean you are coming out as a Manichaen? I just want you to know I fully support your decision, and I promise I will not set up a webcam in your bedroom.


Neither traps of Monism nor of Manicheism have any relation with Dzogchen!
But you did not reply to anyone of my questions...
Do you have personal experience (directly or indirectly) of pain, fear, hunger, illness or paranoia?
Probably not, that's why you claim arrogantly that samsara is fine.

In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it.........

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:29 am 
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Dronma wrote:
In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it......... [/color]


exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:39 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote:
In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it.........


exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground


What a naive paradigm!
Hmm... For you, samsara is like ice cream?
And not a word about the TWO PATHS and TWO RESULTS.... :tongue:

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:47 am 
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Dronma wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote:
In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it.........


exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground


What a naive paradigm!
Hmm... For you, samsara is like ice cream?
And not a word about the TWO PATHS and TWO RESULTS.... :tongue:


ro chig

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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:49 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote:
In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it......... [/color]


exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground

And yet still so many suffer unbearably--even as you type those words-- and some have completely and permanently undone suffering.


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 Post subject: Re: Two approaches.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:54 am 
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Pema Rigdzin wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Dronma wrote:
In the Great Perfection Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra, it says:
"One ground, two paths, two results".
Think more about it......... [/color]


exactly: one ground. the one ground of the ice cream factory, producing chocolate and vanilla. which do you prefer? the good news is, you can have whichever you want. wait, the even better news is: you can have both at the same time! how? one ground

And yet still so many suffer unbearably--even as you type those words-- and some have completely and permanently undone suffering.


do you find a contradiction somewhere?

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