Censorship on This Forum

[Rudra]

I have been banned from this group twice, once as Jax and yesterday as my Bon name as Shenpen. I have received some supportive email from members here, so thank you. Before my final adieu I wish to express one point only. There seems to be a belief that by refining one's intellectual understanding of Dzogchen terminology that one can build a stairway to Rigpa through conceptual grasping. Rigpa is a non-conceptual Knowing. You can't study your way there,nor can you "practice" your way there, for ever present Awareness or Rigpa is not attainable. Cause and effect approaches don't enhance your already present Awareness that's observing these words. This public forum group has been hijacked by fundamentalist Taliban intellectuals who substitute "conceptual hair-splitting" for non-conceptual Wisdom as Yeshe. I am a yogi first, so I speak from experiential insight and clarity whereas the Taliban intellectuals speak from supposition and assumption based on "sem" , conceptualizing dualistic mind. You have been hijacked by pandits who need to secure their tenuous hold by eliminating any threats to their claim on what is acceptable and orthodox. This is deplorable at best, and unacceptable as worst. If you see this post before it is removed, post it again until a discussion has been allowed to occur regarding this topic of freedom of speech on a public forum. Dzogchen requires no thought police and Taliban fundamentalists to uphold it. Open debate is the answer not censorship. Vigorous Dzogchen debate is encouraged and taught in the Bon tradition.

Rudra is one of the names of Shiva also...

[Malcolm]

There seems to be a belief that by refining one's intellectual understanding of Dzogchen terminology that one can build a stairway to Rigpa through conceptual grasping.

No one has this belief. Everyone here understands that the real knowledge of Dzoghen is based on personal experience.

I don't know why you were banned, but it might be because of saying things like "fundamentalist Taliban intellectuals".

[Malcolm]

Vigorous Dzogchen debate is encouraged and taught in the Bon tradition.

Perhaps, but in IMO debate about Dzogchen is really a waste of time. Debate is just conceptual grasping itself.

[Jinzang]

Debate is just conceptual grasping itself.

Then spending time on forums is a waste, yes?

[Tara]

Jax/Shenpen/Rudra

Please read the Terms of Service. It clearly states the following:

3. Accounts will not be deleted upon request / One account per member

Sometimes if people are not happy with their experience at a forum and wish to leave, they ask to have their account deleted, along with all their posts. Member accounts will not be deleted upon request, but they can be deactivated. The member's posts will not be deleted upon request because this would mess up the continuity of any threads in which they were involved in, and therefore cause inconvenience to other members. Members may only have one account. Additionally the creation of an account commonly known as a "sock puppet" account (and/or an account where the true [IP address] identity has been concealed in some fashion for the purpose of deceit) will result in an immediate permanent ban.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

You are no different to anyone else in this respect and therefore there is no option other than to ban you again and this action has nothing to do with censorship it is about abiding by the rules of Dharma Wheel.

Regards,

[Jinzang]

I am a yogi first, so I speak from experiential insight and clarity

Might want to work on your humility.

[Jacks]

Jax/Shenpen/Rudra

Please read the Terms of Service. It clearly states the following:

3. Accounts will not be deleted upon request / One account per member

Sometimes if people are not happy with their experience at a forum and wish to leave, they ask to have their account deleted, along with all their posts. Member accounts will not be deleted upon request, but they can be deactivated. The member's posts will not be deleted upon request because this would mess up the continuity of any threads in which they were involved in, and therefore cause inconvenience to other members. Members may only have one account. Additionally the creation of an account commonly known as a "sock puppet" account (and/or an account where the true [IP address] identity has been concealed in some fashion for the purpose of deceit) will result in an immediate permanent ban.

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591


Tara, I have only had one account "jax". Then I was banned. Then I created a new account because I couldn't post... See? I have no problem according with all the rules.
You are no different to anyone else in this respect and therefore there is no option other than to ban you again and this action has nothing to do with censorship it is about abiding by the rules of Dharma Wheel.

Regards,

[muni]

yogi.

In an absence, what is there to be labeled?

[Jacks]

Jax/Shenpen/Rudra

Please read the Terms of Service. It clearly states the following:

3. Accounts will not be deleted upon request / One account per member

Sometimes if people are not happy with their experience at a forum and wish to leave, they ask to have their account deleted, along with all their posts. Member accounts will not be deleted upon request, but they can be deactivated. The member's posts will not be deleted upon request because this would mess up the continuity of any threads in which they were involved in, and therefore cause inconvenience to other members. Members may only have one account. Additionally the creation of an account commonly known as a "sock puppet" account (and/or an account where the true [IP address] identity has been concealed in some fashion for the purpose of deceit) will result in an immediate permanent ban.

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

I have only ever had one account... What are you talking about? This the Taliban abuse of power I am talking about ... Perfect example!


Tara, I have only had one account "jax". Then I was banned. Then I created a new account because I couldn't post... See? I have no problem according with all the rules.
You are no different to anyone else in this respect and therefore there is no option other than to ban you again and this action has nothing to do with censorship it is about abiding by the rules of Dharma Wheel.

Regards,

[Malcolm]

Debate is just conceptual grasping itself.

Then spending time on forums is a waste, yes?

No, not necessarily. But I find debate singularly unproductive.

N

[Jacks]

Debate has the function of bringing out unsupported notions that cant survive the light of day. More importantly, great debate can be lots of fun!

[Malcolm]

Debate has the function of bringing out unsupported notions that cant survive the light of day. More importantly, great debate can be lots of fun!

Well for example, your notion that Dzogchen is an affirming negation turns out to be completely unsupported by the primary texts of the system. But that does not require debate, that merely requires reading the texts themselves.

In general, we find that in many Dzogchen texts the twin terms dgag and sgrub are used -- dgag means to refute, sgrub means to prove. The essence of debate is refutation and proof, rejecting one point of view and accepting another point of view. But in reality, as Rongzom Chozang points out, the state of Dzogchen is beyond both refutation and proof. This is why I continue to insist that it is waste of time to debate about Dzogchen.

[Jacks]

I am a yogi first, so I speak from experiential insight and clarity

Might want to work on your humility.

Jinzang I could also lie to you, but I won't. I only speak from direct experiential insight when I share my intimate perspective regarding the nature of Rigpa. I wouldn't want to burden others with just speculative ramblings based on intellectual assumption and then pretend to know what I am talking about. It's ones responsibility as a teacher of Dharma. I can easily tell when others are speaking from intellectual supposition versus profound non-conceptual gnosis. The feel is completely different.

It's not boasting... It's just how it is... Is that not acceptle?

[Jinzang]

It's not boasting... It's just how it is... Is that not acceptle?

In Tibetan Buddhism it's considered quite unseemly for a practitioner to claim to be enlightened. Ask any lama, even a great one, if they are enlightened and they will say, "I am just an ordinary monk." Your tradition may be different. I know that in Sanbo Kyodan they used to make a great fuss over practitioners who had gotten kensho. If your ideas express the clarity and insight that comes from rigpa, there is no need to say so, it should be obvious. And if not, trying to bolster your argument by saying so is rather feeble.

[Jackson]

It's not boasting... It's just how it is... Is that not acceptle?

In Tibetan Buddhism it's considered quite unseemly for a practitioner to claim to be enlightened. Ask any lama, even a great one, if they are enlightened and they will say, "I am just an ordinary monk." Your tradition may be different. I know that in Sanbo Kyodan they used to make a great fuss over practitioners who had gotten kensho. If your ideas express the clarity and insight that comes from rigpa, there is no need to say so, it should be obvious. And if not, trying to bolster your argument by saying so is rather feeble.

Jinzang, I never said I was enlightened???? I said I speak from experience of Rigpa... What is enlightenment?

[Jackson]

Debate has the function of bringing out unsupported notions that cant survive the light of day. More importantly, great debate can be lots of fun!

Well for example, your notion that Dzogchen is an affirming negation turns out to be completely unsupported by the primary texts of the system. But that does not require debate, that merely requires reading the texts themselves.

In general, we find that in many Dzogchen texts the twin terms dgag and sgrub are used -- dgag means to refute, sgrub means to prove. The essence of debate is refutation and proof, rejecting one point of view and accepting another point of view. But in reality, as Rongzom Chozang points out, the state of Dzogchen is beyond both refutation and proof. This is why I continue to insist that it is waste of time to debate about Dzogchen.

Debate has the function of bringing out unsupported notions that cant survive the light of day. More importantly, great debate can be lots of fun!

Well for example, your notion that Dzogchen is an affirming negation turns out to be completely unsupported by the primary texts of the system. But that does not require debate, that merely requires reading the texts themselves.

In general, we find that in many Dzogchen texts the twin terms dgag and sgrub are used -- dgag means to refute, sgrub means to prove. The essence of debate is refutation and proof, rejecting on point of view and accepting another point of view. But in reality, as Rongzom Chozang points out, the state of Dzogchen is beyond both refutation and proof. This is why I continue to insist that it is waste of time to debate about Dzogchen.

The "affirming negation" quote was not from my own ideas... It's taken from a Dzogchen master teaching text. I spent two hours looking for the quote and discussion last night as I assumed I would need to support it. I have read the section in the text many times. Also refer to Lopons teaching on Madhyamaka. But I will find it and share it, I am one hundred percent certain. Dzogchen does not just leave emptiness as emptiness as do Mahayana and Mahdyamaka, Dzogchen posits "rigpa" as a positive source and knowingness of it's mandala. This is it's unique flavor, similar to Kashmiri Shaivism on this
point. Direct Introduction is introducing "rigpa" not emptiness, see I will get back to you with quotes, but it's obvious. Essence Mahamudra is in the same boat with it's postulating a "Natural State".

[Sönam]

I'm lost ... Jacks, Jackson, Rudra ... what's that mess ?

Or the guy is accepted or not, in the first case, please, use only one profil

Sönam

[Dechen Norbu]

This is Jax being reborn again and again after being banned.
Please don't feed the troll.
We are dealing with this issue the best and fastest way we can.

Thank you all for understanding.

Further discussion on this forum and moderation policies can be found here: Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....