Origins of Dzogchen

[Malcolm]

Ahem... Guys, I didn't hear one word of refutation regarding Sam Van Schaik's and David Germano's attributions of the origins of Dzogchen. Do you know of more scholarly evidence that points to other origins? Or is this topic taboo to the "true believers" in the mythological stories regarding Dzogchen's origins?

There is nothing to refute. They are text critical historians -- their job is to figure out when a certain idea was first documented on a piece of paper. The inferences they draw from that however should not be regarded as gospels themselves. Western scholarship is all fine and dandy, but it does not lead one to understand what is a valid teaching and what is not.

Dzogchen tantras are intrinsically valid irrespective if they were written in the eight century, the first aeon, or the twenty first century, they do not need the confirmation of this or that western scholar's opinion. They express the awakened state of persons such as Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra, Vimalamitra, Rigzin Godem, ChNN, KDL, etc.


N

[heart]

In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.

I don't think you really mean causal vehicles here, which only reinforce delusion. They do not serve dzogchen, they are the negation of it. read the kunjed gyalpo if you have any doubts about this.

I said this before, but for newcomers I will repeat it again. The Kunjed Gyalpo is a Dzogchen manuals directed at practitioners of the Mahayoga and Anuyoga vehicles. Why is this? It is full of reference from those "lower" Tantras and how to let go of fixations one might have developed while practicing them. The Kunjed Gyalpo is not directed at very obscured Western intellectuals that think that if they read a Tantra they have understood it, which is why they will never understand it.

/magnus

[heart]

Ahem... Guys, I didn't hear one word of refutation regarding Sam Van Schaik's and David Germano's attributions of the origins of Dzogchen. Do you know of more scholarly evidence that points to other origins? Or is this topic taboo to the "true believers" in the mythological stories regarding Dzogchen's origins?

There is nothing to refute. They are text critical historians -- their job is to figure out when a certain idea was first documented on a piece of paper. The inferences they draw from that however should not be regarded as gospels themselves. Western scholarship is all fine and dandy, but it does not lead one to understand what is a valid teaching and what is not.

Dzogchen tantras are intrinsically valid irrespective if they were written in the eight century, the first aeon, or the twenty first century, they do not need the confirmation of this or that western scholar's opinion. They express the awakened state of persons such as Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra, Vimalamitra, Rigzin Godem, ChNN, KDL, etc.


N

Very well put Namdrol.

/magnus

[Pema Rigdzin]

In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.

I don't think you really mean causal vehicles here, which only reinforce delusion. They do not serve dzogchen, they are the negation of it. read the kunjed gyalpo if you have any doubts about this.

These are just your intellectual concepts from reading and misunderstanding the import of what you've read. There are definitely some relative experiences that make it easier for one to recognize one's knowledge of the natural state, and therefore there are definitely contrived practices that can bring about such conducive circumstances. Dzogchen is full of such practices. Contrived practices cannot "cause" one to recognize rigpa, so one cannot say they directly lead to that knowledge. But they can definitely make it easier for one to relax into that knowledge.

[heart]

Contrived practices cannot "cause" one to recognize rigpa, so one cannot say they directly lead to that knowledge. But they can definitely make it easier for one to relax into that knowledge.

That is the point which the whole nine yanas are about, and this is probably why Namdrol in an other thread said Dzogchen (in the sense of the actual practice) was beyond the nine yanas.

/magnus

[Sönam]

Ahem... Guys, I didn't hear one word of refutation regarding Sam Van Schaik's and David Germano's attributions of the origins of Dzogchen. Do you know of more scholarly evidence that points to other origins? Or is this topic taboo to the "true believers" in the mythological stories regarding Dzogchen's origins?

Probably you also know that such polemics aren't any reason of concern for a serious Dzogchen practitioner. I can't see a real practitioner losing his sleep over the mythical or non mythical origins of Dzogchen.

good point ... as it is about experimentation!

Sönam