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 Post subject: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:59 pm 
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I sense a kind of "cult mentality" at play. Many here actually believe the Dzogchen tantras have some primordial origin and history. I think scholarly research will indicate that Dzogchen has a rather short history, probably no older than the late 800's at earliest. It is probable that the Dzogchen teachings were created by some Tibetan lamas or practitioners that took the Mahayoga teachings which result in the state of Dzogchen as in the Guyagharba Tantra tradition. There seems to be no earlier instance of there being a separate vehicle called Dzogchen. Dzogchen was the culmination of the gradual path of generation and completion stage yogas. There exists no Indian or sanskrit texts regarding Dzogchen, none, unlike Mahamudra. I suspect that some Mahayoga practitioners, like Padmasambhava and his group or others created the notion of Dzogchen as being a separate vehicle, much as Saraha and Maitripa did regarding Essence Mahamudra. In other words, some Tibetan practitioners got together and wrote all the Dzogchen Tantras and gave them a false history to provide legitimacy. It is not to say the Tantras are not profound as many are, but later termas are probably just as spurious regarding origins. I do feel the Tantras of Dzogchen do represent the profound state of Mahamudra being present in its authors, but they called their new tradition "Dzogchen". These creators of Dzogchen were probably Vimalamitra and Vairochana. They combined many Central Asian traditions, Chan and Taoist practices, as well as Kashmiri Shaivist yogas. Togal practices can be traced to very ancient "Light Practices" also from Central Asian shamanism that spread as well into Iranian Sufism and Kashmiri Shaivism as shared in the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra. At that time there was a huge melting pot of religious and mystical teachings from the Middle East as well. Much of Padmasambhava's teachings have been heavily influenced by Christian and other Middle Eastern mythologies that Guenther has documented in his Teachings of Padmasambhava. In other words, Dzogchen was made up by some well meaning practitioners, all probably Tibetan from Mahayoga and other Tantric teachings, both Buddhist and Shaivist. Sam Van Schaik and David Germano and others have done some pretty thorough research in this area and have similar conclusions regarding Dzogchen coming from the Mahayoga tantras. Anyway, the point being, Gnosis has no historical basis. It is the ever present changeless Knowing within all experience. Whatever "points that out" to consciousness is that path. So don't get so hung up on imaginary histories and mythologies dependent upon the wishful and imaginary predilections of individuals subject to "cult-like" beliefs and exclusivity regarding the superiority of those beliefs. It becomes a self-reinforcing delusion. The truth is everywhere present, not in a system, lineage or teaching. It is our present empty Awareness that is always perfect and untouched by samsaric conditioning from the beginning, yet is inseparable from all phenomena. Notice how your present impersonal Awareness is always changelessly aware, rest as that. The rest will unfold organically, siddhis and all...


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:29 pm 
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I think you are eluded. Anyway, you are famous for this.. (no ofence)


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:32 pm 
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It's Jax... I mean, he is famous already! :rolling:


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Insert Jax website here_______ and link to donations page here __________

Edit: Honestly, how long are we going to have to endure this?


Last edited by Josef on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:37 pm 
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As long as he abides by the ToS. :smile:
This doesn't mean people need to take him seriously though.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
As long as he abides by the ToS. :smile:
This doesn't mean people need to take him seriously though.


Pesky ToS.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:47 pm 
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:lol:
Well, I look at him with a certain curiosity. I only heard about him till now.
In my opinion, he is a classic example of what happens when you go astray in Dzogchen practice. If not for something else, he sets an example that others can see. Of course he surely considers my opinion mistaken and that's entirely within his right. I hope he comes to his senses one of these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Jaxwheel.net! The big question is; do you resemble jax from mortal kombat 2? And if so how do you feel about this?


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Ahem... Guys, I didn't hear one word of refutation regarding Sam Van Schaik's and David Germano's attributions of the origins of Dzogchen. Do you know of more scholarly evidence that points to other origins? Or is this topic taboo to the "true believers" in the mythological stories regarding Dzogchen's origins?


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Or is this topic taboo to the "true believers" in the mythological stories regarding Dzogchen's origins?


this :thumbsup:

the term "dzogchen" is found in the indic guyagharba tantra, but thats about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:14 pm 
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My theory is that Dzogchen comes from Dog Chen meaning 'large dog'. Which is fine by me because my dog is pretty much the only living ceature that doesn't disgust me.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Yes, as I mentioned... And "Dzogchen" is in reference to the resulting "state" of fruition of Mahayoga practice, meaning "great completion", not the later reworked "Great Perfection". Some have said that the Samtan Migdron and the Tunhuang Caves failed to show any mention of the Kunje Gyalpo for example, yet it was considered the root text of the Semde. Curious, because only the Semde appears in the early period. But again, don't get me wrong... I feel Dzogchen is a wonderful teaching... and that the Tibetan lamas that wrote the Tantras were fully realized, no doubt. But as Dzogchen blended back into the Vajrayana by necessity, it became hopelessly intermingled and contaminated with various "cause and effect" approaches from the lower yanas, especially Mahayoga with its empowerments, samaya and the other Ten Points of Tantra. The Dzogchen of Garab Dorje was of quite a different type (if there ever was a Garab Dorje... but his story sounds a lot like a spin-off from the bio of Shiva, which could impress the local Shaivite Tantrists).


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:29 am 
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Jax wrote:
Ahem... Guys, I didn't hear one word of refutation regarding Sam Van Schaik's and David Germano's attributions of the origins of Dzogchen. Do you know of more scholarly evidence that points to other origins? Or is this topic taboo to the "true believers" in the mythological stories regarding Dzogchen's origins?

Probably you also know that such polemics aren't any reason of concern for a serious Dzogchen practitioner. I can't see a real practitioner losing his sleep over the mythical or non mythical origins of Dzogchen.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:42 am 
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Hi Jax,

Do I take it you believe in some objective historical reality? If so, that's kinda funny, at least to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:02 am 
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pemachophel wrote:
Hi Jax,

Do I take it you believe in some objective historical reality? If so, that's kinda funny, at least to me.


Excellent point! :twothumbsup:
Poor Jax, he is looking for fool admirers, because he needs to feed his ego-superiority.... :stirthepot:

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:05 am 
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The desire to be a guru is a clear indicator that something has gone wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:51 am 
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The only thing that matters is the contents of the texts themselves. Their origins make no difference to me. I will read a Dzogchen text with as much enthusiasm if its written by Garab Dorje or by some bum on the street.

As far as causal vehicles are concerned, if you know the great perfection then you know how causal vehicles benefit those who are not yet able to abide in the natural state without effort. In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:55 am 
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wisdom wrote:
The only thing that matters is the contents of the texts themselves. Their origins make no difference to me. I will read a Dzogchen text with as much enthusiasm if its written by Garab Dorje or by some bum on the street.

As far as causal vehicles are concerned, if you know the great perfection then you know how causal vehicles benefit those who are not yet able to abide in the natural state without effort. In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.


according to dzogchen view, causal vehicles are not some kind of preliminary practice for the slow witted, they are delusions. they are the problem, not the solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:46 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
wisdom wrote:
The only thing that matters is the contents of the texts themselves. Their origins make no difference to me. I will read a Dzogchen text with as much enthusiasm if its written by Garab Dorje or by some bum on the street.

As far as causal vehicles are concerned, if you know the great perfection then you know how causal vehicles benefit those who are not yet able to abide in the natural state without effort. In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.


according to dzogchen view, causal vehicles are not some kind of preliminary practice for the slow witted, they are delusions. they are the problem, not the solution.


But at the same time everything is a product of delusion according to dzogchen. Causal vehicles may be beneficial to some, there is a wide array of capacities and what is appropriate or inappropriate will be based on the individual, I'm sure you can agree...


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 Post subject: Re: Origins of Dzogchen
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:11 am 
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wisdom wrote:
In essence, causal vehicles help people overcome habitual ways of obscuring their own primordial nature, and to that end it serves Dzogchen well.


I don't think you really mean causal vehicles here, which only reinforce delusion. They do not serve dzogchen, they are the negation of it. read the kunjed gyalpo if you have any doubts about this.

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