The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:08 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:I was skipping around reading parts of Longchenpa Rabjampa's Treasury of Philosophical Systems, and it is written that practicing Vajrayana without the Empowerments will lead to ruin; and so I wonder if that has been a huge cause for many obstacles for me.


What Vajrayana practice have you done without an empowerment?
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:26 am

It all started when a few Gnostic instructors recommended some books on Buddhism on a forum, and I bought a few of them one of which was by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche; and then I tried taking Refuge according to the instructions found therein, and continued with Gnostic practices under the assumption that I'd actually taken Refuge.

Aside from that, most of the practices I've done are common to both Hinduism and Buddhism; although I eventually read The Practice of Dzogchen by Tulku Thondup a few years ago and was so impressed by Longchenpa's Wisdom, that I thought I would try to "practice Dzogchen". And I had actually had some (or what I thought were) signs manifest in a dream during that time, yet my said attempt eventually ended in disaster. I've basically been doing practices on and off for about eight years, going back and forth between a little progress and a whole lot of backsliding.

And I've attended open-to-the-public Pujas at a local Nyingma Ling of the lineage of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, but have not received any Transmissions (none that I'm aware of anyway). I would consider requesting teachings there, although as to why I haven't yet is another story in itself....
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:35 am

Lhug-pa,

It doesn't sound like you've committed any grave errors. You don't need an empowerment or anyone's permission to take refuge. And the types of dzogchen instructions given in most books are very general - I don't think you are likely to create serious obstacles for yourself by attempting them. When I first read ChNNR's book, Dzogchen, the Natural State, I incorporated general dzogchen approach to my meditation at the time, and it was very helpful. This was long before I had taken refuge or received direct introduction. Any Vajrayana practices you did at public pujas should also have been fine - unless they specified that they were only open to those who had received empowerment, and you joined in under false pretenses.

I'm going to guess that the obstacles you referred to were there long before you were exposed to dharma. In which case your anxiety about broken samaya is a competely imaginary projection. With this understanding, the anxiety won't necessarily go away immediately, but you can then get some insight into the actual source of your suffering. Please be kind to yourself!! :namaste:
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby heart » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:48 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:And I've attended open-to-the-public Pujas at a local Nyingma Ling of the lineage of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, but have not received any Transmissions (none that I'm aware of anyway). I would consider requesting teachings there, although as to why I haven't yet is another story in itself....


I must ask, is it true you are in Kathmandu? Which will make the local Ling you mention above Ka-Nying Shedrup Ling close to the great stupa in Boudnath, is that right? If it is then all your troubles and doubts are very very easy to remove. All you need is a "kata", a offering and a little courage. You can request refuge, Bodhisattva vows and with a little luck take part in a traditional empowerment and receive teachings on the nature of the mind very soon.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby MrDistracted » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:08 am

he he..that's what i thought, Heart....take another look :-)

Lhug Pa, I would be surprised if your obstacles are are serious as you think, or are caused by breaking of samaya. Rather, from what you've written, one could say that you have received a profound blessing from Dilgo Khyense Rinpoche: you took refuge as best you could following his advice in his book and sure enough you are now able to connect with the authentic dzogchen teachings through ChNNR. That doesn't seem to be the trajectory of a samaya breaker.


All the very best.....and hang onto those books........
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Sönam » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:50 am

heart wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:And I've attended open-to-the-public Pujas at a local Nyingma Ling of the lineage of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, but have not received any Transmissions (none that I'm aware of anyway). I would consider requesting teachings there, although as to why I haven't yet is another story in itself....


I must ask, is it true you are in Kathmandu? Which will make the local Ling you mention above Ka-Nying Shedrup Ling close to the great stupa in Boudnath, is that right? If it is then all your troubles and doubts are very very easy to remove. All you need is a "kata", a offering and a little courage. You can request refuge, Bodhisattva vows and with a little luck take part in a traditional empowerment and receive teachings on the nature of the mind very soon.

/magnus


Kamadhatu ... not Kathmandu

:twothumbsup: (first time have made the same mistake)
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby heart » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:57 am

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:And I've attended open-to-the-public Pujas at a local Nyingma Ling of the lineage of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, but have not received any Transmissions (none that I'm aware of anyway). I would consider requesting teachings there, although as to why I haven't yet is another story in itself....


I must ask, is it true you are in Kathmandu? Which will make the local Ling you mention above Ka-Nying Shedrup Ling close to the great stupa in Boudnath, is that right? If it is then all your troubles and doubts are very very easy to remove. All you need is a "kata", a offering and a little courage. You can request refuge, Bodhisattva vows and with a little luck take part in a traditional empowerment and receive teachings on the nature of the mind very soon.

/magnus


Kamadhatu ... not Kathmandu

:twothumbsup: (first time have made the same mistake)
Sönam


Eh? Ah, kama dhatu, the desire realm. :emb: Makes more sense now. :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby wisdom » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:28 pm

If you are still mixing Gnosticism and Buddhism, thats going to cause you many problems.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:59 am

wisdom wrote:If you are still mixing Gnosticism and Buddhism, thats going to cause you many problems.


Overall I don't necessarily agree, however it would be an irrelevant debate, as I've decided to focus solely on Dzogchen for right now; if anything, in order to have a more uniform feel to my practice to start out with rather than skipping back and forth between traditions, even though I do feel that the two are compatible.

At first I wanted to practice both systems simultaneously, because I suspected that maybe at a relatively subconscious level I might have wanted to practice Dzogchen because it is "easier" than the Gnostic way, which of course is not necessarily the case; so by adhering to both I could avoid making excuses. Nonetheless, trying to do practices from both traditions is very impractical for me at the moment, so much better for me that I focus on Dzogchen only for now. This being said, Dzogchen has in Its teachings all the main points that the Gnostic teachings emphasize anyway.

Most if not all Instructors from the tradition of Samael Aun Weor recognize Dzogchen as legitimate, although they always warn people about trying to practice Dzogchen without really understanding it, because apparently some students have started reading about Dzogchen and thought they could practice it without any problems, but then became disappointed when they didn't see results and therefore gave up on both Gnosis and Dzogchen; albeit in many cases this happened because they thought that Dzogchen would be "easier".


dakini_boi wrote:Lhug-pa,

It doesn't sound like you've committed any grave errors. You don't need an empowerment or anyone's permission to take refuge. And the types of dzogchen instructions given in most books are very general - I don't think you are likely to create serious obstacles for yourself by attempting them. When I first read ChNNR's book, Dzogchen, the Natural State, I incorporated general dzogchen approach to my meditation at the time, and it was very helpful. This was long before I had taken refuge or received direct introduction. Any Vajrayana practices you did at public pujas should also have been fine - unless they specified that they were only open to those who had received empowerment, and you joined in under false pretenses.


Well if I remember correctly, the instructions for taking refuge in the mentioned book by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche were Vajrayana-specific, however this doesn't really matter now because Direct Introduction from Rinpoche and Tun practice certainly includes Refuge. And the Pujas I've attended were open to the public for sure, so good there. Anyway, yeah I also seemed to have benefited from applying, without Direct Introduction, the Dzogchen view the best I could according to what I'd read; at least for a while.

As for grave errors, well I certainly didn't share my whole life story here, so when you say...:


dakini_boi wrote:I'm going to guess that the obstacles you referred to were there long before you were exposed to dharma. In which case your anxiety about broken samaya is a competely imaginary projection. With this understanding, the anxiety won't necessarily go away immediately, but you can then get some insight into the actual source of your suffering. Please be kind to yourself!! :namaste:


...I think you're spot on, because any grave errors I've committed are probably not in the context of Dharma practice specifically, but are more related to life in general (whether in this life or past lives).

Thanks you Dakini Boi, I'll take your advice to heart. :anjali:

(But not to the particular heart I'm replying to next; although maybe he needs to be more kind to himself too, I don't know :mrgreen: :heart: )


heart wrote:I must ask, is it true you are in Kathmandu? Which will make the local Ling you mention above Ka-Nying Shedrup Ling close to the great stupa in Boudnath, is that right? If it is then all your troubles and doubts are very very easy to remove. All you need is a "kata", a offering and a little courage. You can request refuge, Bodhisattva vows and with a little luck take part in a traditional empowerment and receive teachings on the nature of the mind very soon.

/magnus
MrDistracted wrote:he he..that's what i thought, Heart....take another look :-)
Sönam wrote:Kamadhatu ... not Kathmandu

:twothumbsup: (first time have made the same mistake)
Sönam
heart wrote:Eh? Ah, kama dhatu, the desire realm. :emb: Makes more sense now. :smile:

/magnus


LOL

I didn't even consider that when I first read your post. I just thought hm strange, I guess Magnus thinks that the Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche lineage only exists in Nepal? :rolling:

Anyway, well I have received teachings on the Nature of Mind; from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Of course the Webcast style of Receiving Direct Introduction is not traditional in the sense of one being in the same room as the Guru who gives the Introduction. But we all know that this has been discussed at length elsewhere here. Anyhow, having a physical Sangha to associate with is I'm sure a very good thing, and there aren't any Dzogchen Community Lings or Gars in my state. However, especially now that I have Received Direct Introduction, I would rather perform some Purification practices at home before requesting teachings in the physical presence of a Lama.

Thank you for your advice and good wishes though Magnus.


MrDistracted wrote:Lhug Pa, I would be surprised if your obstacles are are serious as you think, or are caused by breaking of samaya. Rather, from what you've written, one could say that you have received a profound blessing from Dilgo Khyense Rinpoche: you took refuge as best you could following his advice in his book and sure enough you are now able to connect with the authentic dzogchen teachings through ChNNR. That doesn't seem to be the trajectory of a samaya breaker.

All the very best.....and hang onto those books........


Which goes back to my question which went something like "Wouldn't 'the Universe' have made it impossible to for me to have Received Direct Introduction from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche if I'd actually broken Samaya?"

If having Received Direct Introduction from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche was somehow connected to having received Blessings from H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, then maybe all of my neurosis and negative actions within the past seven years didn't completely obscure the said possibly-received Blessings. I don't recall ever having Received teachings from H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche in dreams, although it does almost seem familiar, and I have wondered if I had a connection to him, even more-so after having read this post.

Thank you for your insight Mr. Distracted.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:39 am

Don't know how that first thumbs-up emoticon in my previous post got there, but it's not supposed to be. Must have somehow accidentally ended up there when I last edited my post.

And to Dakini Boi I meant to say thank you instead of "thanks you".

:oops:
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby heart » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:56 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Anyway, well I have received teachings on the Nature of Mind; from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Of course the Webcast style of Receiving Direct Introduction is not traditional in the sense of one being in the same room as the Guru who gives the Introduction. But we all know that this has been discussed at length elsewhere here. Anyhow, having a physical Sangha to associate with is I'm sure a very good thing, and there aren't any Dzogchen Community Lings or Gars in my state. However, especially now that I have Received Direct Introduction, I would rather perform some Purification practices at home before requesting teachings in the physical presence of a Lama.

Thank you for your advice and good wishes though Magnus.


I don't doubt the webcast direct introduction at all. But, there is a lot more than that first glimpse that you can get from a master. For this reason it is a great idea to go to see ChNN Rinpoche and hang out with him and his students and it is also a very good idea to go see other great Dzogchen masters. If you have the capacity and ability to request teachings from great Dzogchen masters that is the most powerful purification you could ever do.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:33 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:If having Received Direct Introduction from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche was somehow connected to having received Blessings from H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, then maybe all of my neurosis and negative actions within the past seven years didn't completely obscure the said possibly-received Blessings. I don't recall ever having Received teachings from H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche in dreams, although it does almost seem familiar, and I have wondered if I had a connection to him, even more-so after having read this post.


Hi

Well, I can't presume to know your connections, but I was really trying to say that your interest in reading Longchenpa and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, far from having led you some sort of vajra hell has led you to the purelands of ChNNR's mandala :smile:

And why concern yourself with what does or doesn't appear in your dreams, if such immense merit is manifesting through cause and effect in your everyday, waking life, as it surely is?

But just as lottery winners often have to check and recheck their tickets, sometimes one can have such good fortune that one doesn't quite believe it.....
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby muni » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:37 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Let's just say that I'm currently very far from having the Eight Opportunities and Ten Favorable Conditions for Dharma practice, and that I've been kidding myself thinking that I would either create them all very soon, or "just make it work" without having all of them. And there's more to it than that, although we'll just leave it at that for now.



Just as ice is never losing its' nature "water", in same way we never leave our nature neither. therefore no any need to lose heart. :smile: This is so encouraging my already exhausted mind.

but ice cannot melt faster by striving. It looks sometimes like we want to keep one leg in samsara to be able to elaborate/analyse and more and more and more fabrications while we are striving to get both legs in noncreated nature.

Or maybe our tricky busy keeping mind want to take a speed train with a target to reach, far away from home.

Dzogchen is not intellectual fabrications like the eight other vehicles, therefore talk on a forum is info.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:50 pm

Heart wrote:I don't doubt the webcast direct introduction at all. But, there is a lot more than that first glimpse that you can get from a master. For this reason it is a great idea to go to see ChNN Rinpoche and hang out with him and his students and it is also a very good idea to go see other great Dzogchen masters. If you have the capacity and ability to request teachings from great Dzogchen masters that is the most powerful purification you could ever do.

/magnus


The problem is, is that I've had a difficult time being around, physically, any Sangha; because when I am around one, I feel like I'm not bringing good vibes at all. And this why I want to do a lot of purification practice on my own first before requesting teachings in person. It could just be all in my head. Either way, I think it would be best to perform an extended purification practice first. And as things currently stand, I've not the financial means to meet Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche in person.


Mr. Distracted wrote:Well, I can't presume to know your connections, but I was really trying to say that your interest in reading Longchenpa and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, far from having led you some sort of vajra hell has led you to the purelands of ChNNR's mandala

And why concern yourself with what does or doesn't appear in your dreams, if such immense merit is manifesting through cause and effect in your everyday, waking life, as it surely is?

But just as lottery winners often have to check and recheck their tickets, sometimes one can have such good fortune that one doesn't quite believe it.....


I don't know, does having interest in and some access to Dzogchen teachings in itself indicate that one is not on the road to lower rebirths?

Well, I guess speculating about it doesn't do any good; and since I do have interest in and access to these teachings, it would be best to make the best of it from moment to moment regardless, as you've suggested here.

About H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinooche, I thought your comment about blessings was interesting in relation to the post that I linked to; so I was kind of just thinking out loud.


Muni wrote:Just as ice is never losing its' nature "water", in same way we never leave our nature neither. therefore no any need to lose heart. This is so encouraging my already exhausted mind.

but ice cannot melt faster by striving. It looks sometimes like we want to keep one leg in samsara to be able to elaborate/analyse and more and more and more fabrications while we are striving to get both legs in noncreated nature.

Or maybe our tricky busy keeping mind want to take a speed train with a target to reach, far away from home.

Dzogchen is not intellectual fabrications like the eight other vehicles, therefore talk on a forum is info.


The thing about this, is that ice doesn't melt any faster by lazily falling into the hell-realms either. And if one does take rebirth in the hell realms, that ice isn't going to become water again for a long time, that is until one's karma is paid through a lot of pain and suffering there. Yet here I am talking about it instead of doing something about it. :coffee:

I see what you're saying though Muni, the point of Dzogchen is uncontrived Bodhicitta, not obsessing about avoiding suffering and lower rebirths.


Heart Drops of Dharmakaya wrote:"Of course even if sickness and miseries come, the practitioners do not care. If the King of Hell comes and puts molten metal in their mouths, if the demons come to take them away, they know that these appearances are not separate from their own nature.  So no one can make the practitioner afraid."


However the Rushens such as the Six Lokas practice are there for a reason too though.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Josef » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:16 pm

Hey Lhuggy!
You have the transmission and the freedom and the endowments to do your practice every day.
That, my friend, is the key. Relax, make the practice a part of your life and carry your experience off the cushion.
Try to let go of the hopes and fears and actually appreciate how you are able to work with the practices.
That is the blessing, the freedom, the endowment, the path, cause, the result, the everything.
As we work with it and as Rinpoche says, integrate, we start to actually recognize that the practice is just who and what we are.
Just live it.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:27 am

:good:
I'd like to add to what Nangwa said - also, keep making aspirations for more and more ideal conditions for practice to arise - outer, inner, secret, etc. . . e.g. time, place, funds, right companions, right teachers, emotional stability, mental capacity, health, etc.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:27 am

Nangwa

Sound advice. I want to ask though, is simply sitting down and practicing everyday despite many doubts (whether it be about ourselves, the teachings, or both), a valid way to approach practicing? Or is already having strong faith beforehand required? It's kind of funny, sometimes we'll read Scriptures about the qualifications of a worthy practitioner, and it seems as if the said qualified practitioners described are those who are already close to perfecting all Ten Perfections.


Dakini_Boi

It's funny you mention that. I woke up this morning feeling like I got hit by a truck (no alcohol), and it hasn't gone away all day; so instead of cleaning or studying, I've been discussing Hip-Hop with Padma Norbu in Asunthatneversets' Heavy Metal thread. :shrug: :coffee: :smile:

I've got a plan of action outlined; now if I can just finish studying as to be able to carry it out, that should be a good start.

In summary, the best that can be done at this point, is to abandon hope and fear; and pray for various aspects of success (which seems to contradict the abandoning of hope part) for the sake of all sentient beings (which makes abandoning hope not contradictory to praying for success), yes?
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:42 am

To clarify a couple things about my previous post which is no longer editable....

It's not that I doubt the teachings themselves so much, as it is that I doubt my circumstances in relation to them.

And when I said "no alcohol", it wasn't meant that I felt like I got hit by a truck because I didn't have any alcohol this morning, but that my having felt like I got hit by a truck this morning was completely unrelated to alcohol (if it were because I didn't have any alcohol this morning, that would be quite a problem wouldn't it :rolling: ).
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Sönam » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:35 am

To doubt your circumstances in relation with the teachings is identical to doubt the teachings themselves ... apply the teachings with no fear no hope is the best strategy

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The Freedoms and Endowments For Dzogchen Practice

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:25 pm

Hi Sönam

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with your first statement, however your second statement certainly agrees with my signature's quoting of Rinpoche. Not much else to say about that. At least not from me at this point anyway.

And Dakini Boi, you used the term aspirations, not prayers (I read your post and then came back to reply hours later without rereading it); although I guess in the end, prayers and aspirations are basically the same.
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