Rigpa vs. Alaya

[Clarence]

Having listened to CNN for some time now, I would like to ask a question which has been going around in my mind lately.

In Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's book Indisputable Truth he describes how there are 3 obstacles to the "experience" of Rigpa, namely:

- Indifference. This is where you confuse being indifferent and not caring with being in Rigpa. (This one I understand)

- Letting thoughts run wild. This is where you think that since there is nothing to do and thoughts are Rigpa you just let your monkey mind run free. (This I also understand)

- Confusing the experience of Alaya all-ground for Rigpa. Apparently they are very similar. (So, this one I don't understand.)
I started reading Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on Distinguishing Consciousness from Wisdom and hope that will help clarify things a little but for now, how can one be sure and how do the experiences differ?

Many thanks. C

[Malcolm]

Having listened to CNN for some time now, I would like to ask a question which has been going around in my mind lately.

In Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's book Indisputable Truth he describes how there are 3 obstacles to the "experience" of Rigpa, namely:

- Indifference. This is where you confuse being indifferent and not caring with being in Rigpa. (This one I understand)

- Letting thoughts run wild. This is where you think that since there is nothing to do and thoughts are Rigpa you just let your monkey mind run free. (This I also understand)

- Confusing the experience of Alaya all-ground for Rigpa. Apparently they are very similar. (So, this one I don't understand.)
I started reading Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on Distinguishing Consciousness from Wisdom and hope that will help clarify things a little but for now, how can one be sure and how do the experiences differ?

Many thanks. C

Ālaya, in Dzogchen generally is considered ignorance. They reason they are similar is that they have the same basis.

[heart]

It is complicated on the basis that different tradition treats this subject differently, here Alexander Berzin's take on it http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... re_02.html
In the Nyingma this question is the difference between sem and rigpa and I at least think that an intellectual approach isn't much helpful in this matter.
/magnus

[Clarence]

Ālaya, in Dzogchen generally is considered ignorance. They reason they are similar is that they have the same basis.

N-la,

So how does the experience differ?

[Clarence]

It is complicated on the basis that different tradition treats this subject differently, here Alexander Berzin's take on it http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... re_02.html
In the Nyingma this question is the difference between sem and rigpa and I at least think that an intellectual approach isn't much helpful in this matter.
/magnus

Magnus,

I agree that an intellectual approach is not very helpful. However, your Lama warns specifically for this fault. I am glad he did btw. Multiple times actually in his book. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol also warns for it in one of his books. I read the quote today in Bruce Newman's book. Coming across it twice in two days made me want to take a better look and ask some questions here.
Thanks for the link. I will check it out.

[conebeckham]

Interesting question.
Alaya means different things to different people, eh? You're looking at some largely Kagyu-oriented texts, though Chokyi Nyima teaches Dzokchen, he (and others) use some "Kagyu terms" sometimes....

I'm guessing that, in this instance, the distinction being made is between Rigpa as basis of all (Direct "Knowledge" of Ultimate State) and perception of Alayavijnana which is called the Kun Zhi Nam Shay, in Kagyu, or the Storehouse of Habits. If one were theoretically to have a perception of the latter, or "Direct 'Knowledge'of the Storehouse of Habits," this would be a profound experience for sure--but it would not be the same as having the experience of the Ultimate State, which is Kun Zhi Yeshe in Kagyu--and which, I think, is synonymous with Rigpa.

???

[gad rgyangs]

if u want to know about alaya, read this:

http://en.bookfi.org/book/1114702

[conebeckham]

That link is blocked where I am......spam filter says it's "hacking site."

Just sayin'.......

[gad rgyangs]

sounds like you're using a fascist browser or something...
anyway you can get the book here too:

http://ifile.it/1fn6rk/__The___039_Buddhist_Unconscious__039___The_Alaya_Vijnana_in_the_Context_of_Indian_Buddhist_Thought__Routledgecurzon_Critical_Studies_in_Buddhism_.l_60x3t4581xk6xk7.pdf

[wisdom]

On this note, how does one tell the difference between being Indifferent and Rigpa?

[Paul]

Having listened to CNN for some time now, I would like to ask a question which has been going around in my mind lately.

In Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's book Indisputable Truth he describes how there are 3 obstacles to the "experience" of Rigpa, namely:

- Indifference. This is where you confuse being indifferent and not caring with being in Rigpa. (This one I understand)

- Letting thoughts run wild. This is where you think that since there is nothing to do and thoughts are Rigpa you just let your monkey mind run free. (This I also understand)

- Confusing the experience of Alaya all-ground for Rigpa. Apparently they are very similar. (So, this one I don't understand.)
I started reading Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on Distinguishing Consciousness from Wisdom and hope that will help clarify things a little but for now, how can one be sure and how do the experiences differ?

Many thanks. C

This is a very important and interesting topic. Tsoknyi Rinpoche talks about it a lot in his lectures. The alaya is a very subtle state, but is still dualistic. It's still holding a subject/object and is frozen. It can't really allow experience to occur, unlike the totally open rigpa.

[alpha]

Would Alaya be an empty state where there is a focus on that empty state?

[Paul]

Would Alaya be an empty state where there is a focus on that empty state?

That sounds like one of the three nyams to me, at least as long as there's a 'holding' of some sort. In that case it would be meditation rather than non-meditation.

Alaya is more of a "stupid meditation" than that as far as I understand. Similar to relaxing into an absent minded state - like staring out of the window.

[alpha]

Would Alaya be an empty state where there is a focus on that empty state?

That sounds like one of the three nyams to me, at least as long as there's a 'holding' of some sort. In that case it would be meditation rather than non-meditation.

Alaya is more of a "stupid meditation" than that as far as I understand. Similar to relaxing into an absent minded state - like staring out of the window.

I see ...

But how do you make the step from just being in that meditation to resting in rigpa?
I continue my strugle in understanding what this rigpa is.

When doing many times A i can only say that i have quite a few experiences which are not similar to each other.So i wouldn know witch one of them is rigpa.
For me it seems that the road of white A can lead to many destinations not one.
So how can i know what rigpa is when i have never seen it and therefore i cannot recognize it?

[Paul]

If you cannot speak to a teacher in person about this, then I really recommend one of these two books:

Title Meditator’s Guide to Great Completion - Mingyur Rinpoche
http://www.tibet.dk/pktc/transpaper.htm ... todzogchen

Ground, Path, and Fruition - Tsoknyi Rinpoche
http://www.tibet.dk/pktc/tsoknyibooks.h ... thFruition

Both are very clear on how to practice Trekcho.

I see you are in the UK - why not come to Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's centre in Doncaster? It's an amazing place. Rinpoche is teaching this summer, as is Phakchok Rinpoche: http://www.gomde.org.uk/seminars-and-gu ... -p-22.html

[alpha]

sure ..
thanks for the info..
I will give it a try.

[Clarence]

Thank you all. That was helpful. Paul, the books you mentioned are restricted unfortunately. However, I did find Carefree Dignity on Gad Rgyangs bookfinder site.
So, very thankful to Gad Rgyangs for the site.

[Paul]

Thank you all. That was helpful. Paul, the books you mentioned are restricted unfortunately. However, I did find Carefree Dignity on Gad Rgyangs bookfinder site.
So, very thankful to Gad Rgyangs for the site.

You should be okay if you've had Dzogchen teachings from another teacher. The restrictions at Wisdom Books are going to let you buy Ground Path and Fruition if you have already had pointing out instructions: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=18670

You could always contact Tony Duff and ask. After all, what are you going to lose?

[conebeckham]

When doing many times A i can only say that i have quite a few experiences which are not similar to each other.So i wouldn know witch one of them is rigpa.
For me it seems that the road of white A can lead to many destinations not one.
So how can i know what rigpa is when i have never seen it and therefore i cannot recognize it?

What is it that has all these experiences? Or, in other words, look at that which is the awareness of these experiences.....??

[Paul]

When doing many times A i can only say that i have quite a few experiences which are not similar to each other.So i wouldn know witch one of them is rigpa.
For me it seems that the road of white A can lead to many destinations not one.
So how can i know what rigpa is when i have never seen it and therefore i cannot recognize it?

What is it that has all these experiences? Or, in other words, look at that which is the awareness of these experiences.....??

Cone's just reminded me - the advice he's just given is very similar to Mipham Rinpoche's text "A Lamp to Dispel Darkness". This method can actually use the alaya as a jumping-off point for rigpa, and that's actually the method of the first section of the teaching. You can read Ken McLeod's translation here: http://www.unfetteredmind.org/a-light-in-the-dark

Edit - please note that, according to the instructions I have received, the 'looking'/'noticing' is very gentle and natural. If it is too hard, then the natural state will be missed by accident.