Understanding The Basis

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Understanding The Basis

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:33 am

in the Dzogchen view, the characteristics of the basis are purity (kadag, emptiness), inexhaustible and uninterrupted manifestation (lhundrup) and responsiveness/compassion (thugje). now, can there be compassion and responsiveness as an impersonal phenomena? I don't see how, since it is by definition intentional, and intentionality is a characteristic of consciousness, of awareness.

Longchenpa says in nalugzo concerning lhundrup:

kun 'byung nor bu dang 'dra byang chub sems/
'khor 'das chos kun 'byung ba'i gzhi mor grub/

"Like a gem that provides everything, bodhicitta serves as the ground that is the source of all phenomena of samsara and nirvana"

so its the source of all manifestation, and it posseses an innate intentionality of responsiveness. not sure how this differs from any other concept of "god", except of course "its empty" (like that explains away everything).
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:46 am

gad rgyangs wrote:in the Dzogchen view, the characteristics of the basis are purity (kadag, emptiness), inexhaustible and uninterrupted manifestation (lhundrup) and responsiveness/compassion (thugje). now, can there be compassion and responsiveness as an impersonal phenomena? I don't see how, since it is by definition intentional, and intentionality is a characteristic of consciousness, of awareness.



Gems are inert, so they have no intention. Whoever possesses that gem can get what they want.

Likewise, compassion has no intentionlity, but since everyone posssess that basis, liberation is possible for all sentient beings.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:33 am

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:in the Dzogchen view, the characteristics of the basis are purity (kadag, emptiness), inexhaustible and uninterrupted manifestation (lhundrup) and responsiveness/compassion (thugje). now, can there be compassion and responsiveness as an impersonal phenomena? I don't see how, since it is by definition intentional, and intentionality is a characteristic of consciousness, of awareness.



Gems are inert, so they have no intention. Whoever possesses that gem can get what they want.

Likewise, compassion has no intentionlity, but since everyone posssess that basis, liberation is possible for all sentient beings.


then the basis is just a metaphor (fine with me).
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:34 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:in the Dzogchen view, the characteristics of the basis are purity (kadag, emptiness), inexhaustible and uninterrupted manifestation (lhundrup) and responsiveness/compassion (thugje). now, can there be compassion and responsiveness as an impersonal phenomena? I don't see how, since it is by definition intentional, and intentionality is a characteristic of consciousness, of awareness.



Gems are inert, so they have no intention. Whoever possesses that gem can get what they want.

Likewise, compassion has no intentionlity, but since everyone posssess that basis, liberation is possible for all sentient beings.


then the basis is just a metaphor (fine with me).


Well, no -- compassion is the basis for the expression of the nirmanakāya and its activities.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:then the basis is just a metaphor (fine with me).


Well, no -- compassion is the basis for the expression of the nirmanakāya and its activities.


maybe "compassion" and "responsiveness" are not good translations then, since they are so clearly agentive. Rinpoche in Crystal +Way of Light seems to be translating thugs rje as "energy"
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:45 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:then the basis is just a metaphor (fine with me).


Well, no -- compassion is the basis for the expression of the nirmanakāya and its activities.


maybe "compassion" and "responsiveness" are not good translations then, since they are so clearly agentive. Rinpoche in Crystal +Way of Light seems to be translating thugs rje as "energy"


Thugs rjes (karuna) is the word used to describe the nirmanakāya function of the basis. As long as we understand that is what compassion means, we do not need a better word than compassion to describe this aspect of the basis.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:Thugs rjes (karuna) is the word used to describe the nirmanakāya function of the basis. As long as we understand that is what compassion means, we do not need a better word than compassion to describe this aspect of the basis.

N


so on what level does cognizance make its appearance: dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, or nirmanakaya?
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:13 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Thugs rjes (karuna) is the word used to describe the nirmanakāya function of the basis. As long as we understand that is what compassion means, we do not need a better word than compassion to describe this aspect of the basis.

N


so on what level does cognizance make its appearance: dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, or nirmanakaya?



What is the Tibetan word for you are using "cognizance"?
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Thugs rjes (karuna) is the word used to describe the nirmanakāya function of the basis. As long as we understand that is what compassion means, we do not need a better word than compassion to describe this aspect of the basis.

N


so on what level does cognizance make its appearance: dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, or nirmanakaya?



What is the Tibetan word for you are using cognizance?


i was thinking of the general sense of knowing awareness, more specifically self-awareness. in the sense of rigpa maybe? im just interested in the idea that if the basis is not conscious, so where does consciousness in general, and rigpa specifically, come from?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:21 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
i was thinking of the general sense of knowing awareness, more specifically self-awareness. in the sense of rigpa maybe? im just interested in the idea that if the basis is not conscious, so where does consciousness in general, and rigpa specifically, come from?


The basis possesses a neutral or latent awareness [shes pa lung ma bstan or shes pa bag la nyal] which is unaware of itself. But this is only a very general way of speaking, just was we speak of the six dhātus: earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
i was thinking of the general sense of knowing awareness, more specifically self-awareness. in the sense of rigpa maybe? im just interested in the idea that if the basis is not conscious, so where does consciousness in general, and rigpa specifically, come from?


The basis possesses a neutral or latent awareness [shes pa lung ma bstan or shes pa bag la nyal] which is unaware of itself. But this is only a very general way of speaking, just was we speak of the six dhātus: earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness.


isnt awareness (of any kind) a characteristic of a sentient being, indeed the definition of a sentient being?
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:42 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
i was thinking of the general sense of knowing awareness, more specifically self-awareness. in the sense of rigpa maybe? im just interested in the idea that if the basis is not conscious, so where does consciousness in general, and rigpa specifically, come from?


The basis possesses a neutral or latent awareness [shes pa lung ma bstan or shes pa bag la nyal] which is unaware of itself. But this is only a very general way of speaking, just was we speak of the six dhātus: earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness.


isnt awareness (of any kind) a characteristic of a sentient being, indeed the definition of a sentient being?



Apparently not in Dzogchen, since during this phase, there are niether buddhas nor sentient beings, no samsara, no nirvana. This the reason why the basis is also called "the bardo of samsara and nirvana", meaning that niether are manifest during this period.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Will » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:55 pm

gad rgyangs: Isnt awareness (of any kind) a characteristic of a sentient being, indeed the definition of a sentient being?

Namdrol: Apparently not in Dzogchen, since during this phase, there are neither buddhas nor sentient beings, no samsara, no nirvana. This the reason why the basis is also called "the bardo of samsara and nirvana", meaning that neither are manifest during this period.


This non-sentient awareness sounds like the foundational or basis Chit found in Vedanta and the Yoga-Vasishta.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:Apparently not in Dzogchen, since during this phase, there are niether buddhas nor sentient beings, no samsara, no nirvana. This the reason why the basis is also called "the bardo of samsara and nirvana", meaning that niether are manifest during this period.


hang on: the basis isnt only during the bardo. what about the basis right now?
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:11 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Apparently not in Dzogchen, since during this phase, there are niether buddhas nor sentient beings, no samsara, no nirvana. This the reason why the basis is also called "the bardo of samsara and nirvana", meaning that niether are manifest during this period.


hang on: the basis isnt only during the bardo. what about the basis right now?


The basis is called the basis because it has not been realized.

At present the basis is not latent, like it is between eons. At present the basis is in a state of manifestation as Buddhas and sentient beings. When the basis is latent, we term it "the time of the basis" or "the bardo of samsara and nirvana". After the basis manifests we term this phase "samsara and nirvana turn their backs to one another". When we

When we fully realize the path of dzogchen, it is called "the universe manifests as the basis": in other words, our total experience will be the three wisdoms subsumed under the name, great original purity.

The basis itself has not changed in anyway during these three time periods.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby pensum » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:10 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:hang on: the basis isnt only during the bardo. what about the basis right now?


it is a common error to think that "bardo" only refers to the period between death and rebirth, however typically four or six bardos are referred to. they are enumerated at http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Bardo#The_Four_Bardos
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:20 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Apparently not in Dzogchen, since during this phase, there are niether buddhas nor sentient beings, no samsara, no nirvana. This the reason why the basis is also called "the bardo of samsara and nirvana", meaning that niether are manifest during this period.


hang on: the basis isnt only during the bardo. what about the basis right now?


The basis is called the basis because it has not been realized.

At present the basis is not latent, like it is between eons. At present the basis is in a state of manifestation as Buddhas and sentient beings. When the basis is latent, we term it "the time of the basis" or "the bardo of samsara and nirvana". After the basis manifests we term this phase "samsara and nirvana turn their backs to one another". When we

When we fully realize the path of dzogchen, it is called "the universe manifests as the basis": in other words, our total experience will be the three wisdoms subsumed under the name, great original purity.

The basis itself has not changed in anyway during these three time periods.

N


so what becomes of the latent awareness of the basis? are we it?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Evidence for Design?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:07 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
so what becomes of the latent awareness of the basis? are we it?


When the latent awareness (shes pa bag la nyal] of the basis recognizes the basis as its own display, it becomes prajñā [shes rab] and realizes buddhahood as Samantabhadra.

When the latent awareness of the basis does not recognize itself, under the power of the imputing ignorance that imputs appearances as other and that awarness as a self, it becomes consciousness [rnam par shes pa].

The 'latent awareness of the basis' is an aggregate name for all those beings who have not acheived total buddhahood in the previous eon, but acheived a so called "buddhahood that reverts to the cause", [as I have explained now several times within the last few weeks] in the same way that we refer to the aggregated consciousnesses of all sentient beings as the vijñānadhātu, along with dhātus of earth, water, air, fire and space, the so called sadadhātu, the six dhātus.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Understanding The Basis

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:48 pm

so its more like the basis is a container for this aggregate of latent awarenesses, rather than it being the awareness of the basis itself?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
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Re: Understanding The Basis

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:20 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:so its more like the basis is a container for this aggregate of latent awarenesses, rather than it being the awareness of the basis itself?


It is part of the rtsal of the basis.

The basis is not one thing, it is not many. It is the dharmadhātu.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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