ChNNR Dorje Drolo retreat

[Dronma]

First of all, we have to be sure that we understand well what is really Guru Yoga! For this reason, I suggest the book "Guru Yoga" by ChNN, Shang Shung Edizioni 2011. But be careful, for being able to read it, you have to receive first transmission from Rinpoche!

where do you find that? I didn't find it on the online shangshung.org store

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=434

[Dronma]

Also, there is the new Guruyoga ebook in PDF format:

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=455

Just announced!

[orgyen jigmed]

It is a little complicated. But the long and short of it is is that it is the most wrathful practice there is. If your view is very stable, then there is no problem, but if not. Drollos name is "krodha lokottara" i.e. "transcendent wrath" -- gro wo lod is a corruption of that.

If you can talk about this in an open forum, may I then ask what exactly are the negative side-effects of the Dorje Drollo practice specifically i.e. in case something goes wrong?

What exactly would be the benefits if you do everything correctly? What precisely does the Dorje Drollo practice do - aside from the very general statement that it clears the obstacles?

Is the Dorje Drollo the most wrathful practice in all of Vajrayana or is this just valid for the Nyingma school?

A. Fulgens

One becomes a rudra much more rapidly than other practices. It is a dangerous practice for one's ego.

The guardians of Drollo are the worldly eight classes, in general.

There is nothing more wrathful in any school.

Dorje Drollo is certainly not a peaceful practice, and it is generally categorized as a Wrathful Guru practice; Wrathful Guru practices are about getting into hidden corners of the mind, places we don't always look at. The reason why caution is advised is because wrathful energy may elicit unpredictable responses, and it is in how we react, in face of the 'unpredictable' which is indicative of how truly grounded we are in the nature of mind - the natural state beyond hope or fear.

[Dronma]

Dorje Drollo is certainly not a peaceful practice, and it is generally categorized as a Wrathful Guru practice; Wrathful Guru practices are about getting into hidden corners of the mind, places we don't always look at. The reason why caution is advised is because wrathful energy may elicit unpredictable responses, and it is in how we react, in face of the 'unpredictable' which is indicative of how truly grounded we are in the nature of mind - the natural state beyond hope or fear.

[asunthatneversets]

I was surprised to hear blue too, I went into it expecting dark red.

[Fa Dao]

I listened to the replay and have a question in regards to the action mantra. Can anyone give me a few concrete examples as to when and why someone would use the action mantra? I just dont understand its purpose.

[Kilaya.]

I listened to the replay and have a question in regards to the action mantra. Can anyone give me a few concrete examples as to when and why someone would use the action mantra? I just dont understand its purpose.

When: 3 times after chanting the main mantra for some time.
Why: to destroy negative influences (hostile forces, breakage of samaya, etc.) with wrathful activity.

As for concrete situations, I'd be very cautious with trying to solve a specific problem (especially the ones connected with other people) by wrathful practices.

[alpha]

please be careful with the action mantra ....3 times...no more...

[Dechen Norbu]

It's not likely people get significant results from the action mantra (any action mantra) without first doing some serious time of practice related to the deity, usually in retreat conditions. I'm just saying this so that you don't end up thinking that the mantra doesn't work if you do it and nothing happens. It does, but not overnight.

[Fa Dao]

Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback. I do remember Rinpoche saying no more than three times...I have done MANY foolish things in my life but when Rinpoche actually goes as far to say anything that specifically...I listen.

[pemachophel]

In Jamgon Kongtrul's Knowing One Liberates All, He says it usually takes six months of recitation retreat (when going by time) to accomplish a given Deity. However, each sadhana typically spells out how many mantra (when going by number) one should expect to recite before achieving accomplishment. In most of the sadhanas I am familiar with, the recitations are divided into three stages: nyen-pa (approach [familiarization]), drub-pa (accomplishment), and lay-jor (activity), with each stage/mantra being said a certain number of times. A general rule for nyen-pa is to say the root mantra 100,000 times for each syllable with possibly another 100,000 for good measure, i.e., to make up any deficiencies. However, in the Paltrul sung-gyud (Paltrul Rinpoche's lineage of Longchen Nyingthig [as, for instance, carried on by Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche]), one typically does 11% over and beyond what the text stipulates. So, if the text says 100,000, the practitioner does 111,111. I agree with Dechen Norbu that it usually takes serious time and effort doing the root mantra before being able to make the activity mantra really work. I have also heard one Lama say (on several occasions) that reciting more than just a few of the activity mantra before having done the requisite nyen-pa and drub-pa is a breach of samaya that can shorten the Teacher's life. If that is true, then I think it goes without saying that it would also be bad for/dangerous to the sadhaka that did so.

[Malcolm]

In Jamgon Kongtrul's Knowing One Liberates All, He says it usually takes six months of recitation retreat (when going by time) to accomplish a given Deity. However, each sadhana typically spells out how many mantra (when going by number) one should expect to recite before achieving accomplishment. In most of the sadhanas I am familiar with, the recitations are divided into three stages: nyen-pa (approach [familiarization]), drub-pa (accomplishment), and lay-jor (activity), with each stage/mantra being said a certain number of times. A general rule for nyen-pa is to say the root mantra 100,000 times for each syllable with possibly another 100,000 for good measure, i.e., to make up any deficiencies. However, in the Paltrul sung-gyud (Paltrul Rinpoche's lineage of Longchen Nyingthig [as, for instance, carried on by Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche]), one typically does 11% over and beyond what the text stipulates. So, if the text says 100,000, the practitioner does 111,111. I agree with Dechen Norbu that it usually takes serious time and effort doing the root mantra before being able to make the activity mantra really work. I have also heard one Lama say (on several occasions) that reciting more than just a few of the activity mantra before having done the requisite nyen-pa and drub-pa is a breach of samaya that can shorten the Teacher's life. If that is true, then I think it goes without saying that it would also be bad for/dangerous to the sadhaka that did so.

This is definitely not what ChNN says to his students in general. Quality is far more important than quantity. One week of high quality is much better than months of low quality recitation in terms of quantity.

N

[Kilaya.]

In Jamgon Kongtrul's Knowing One Liberates All, He says it usually takes six months of recitation retreat (when going by time) to accomplish a given Deity. However, each sadhana typically spells out how many mantra (when going by number) one should expect to recite before achieving accomplishment. In most of the sadhanas I am familiar with, the recitations are divided into three stages: nyen-pa (approach [familiarization]), drub-pa (accomplishment), and lay-jor (activity), with each stage/mantra being said a certain number of times. A general rule for nyen-pa is to say the root mantra 100,000 times for each syllable with possibly another 100,000 for good measure, i.e., to make up any deficiencies. However, in the Paltrul sung-gyud (Paltrul Rinpoche's lineage of Longchen Nyingthig [as, for instance, carried on by Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche]), one typically does 11% over and beyond what the text stipulates. So, if the text says 100,000, the practitioner does 111,111. I agree with Dechen Norbu that it usually takes serious time and effort doing the root mantra before being able to make the activity mantra really work. I have also heard one Lama say (on several occasions) that reciting more than just a few of the activity mantra before having done the requisite nyen-pa and drub-pa is a breach of samaya that can shorten the Teacher's life. If that is true, then I think it goes without saying that it would also be bad for/dangerous to the sadhaka that did so.

And let's not forget Ngondro as a prerequisite to any sadhana. I wonder if one lifetime would be enough for a person with a job and a family to get to the point where he can use any action mantra according to the strictly traditional approach to Vajrayana.

[Fa Dao]

Are most wrathful action mantras the same as far as function or does each one usually have its own special thing that it does? If Dorje Drolo has something specific to it I sure would be appreciative if someone could tell me. If its necessary to PM me about it that would be ok.
Namdrol, I am trying to do what Rinpoche says about quality over quantity. I dont do a lot every day but I do try to make each one count.
Once again, I appreciate the feedback so far from everybody.

[heart]

In Jamgon Kongtrul's Knowing One Liberates All, He says it usually takes six months of recitation retreat (when going by time) to accomplish a given Deity. However, each sadhana typically spells out how many mantra (when going by number) one should expect to recite before achieving accomplishment. In most of the sadhanas I am familiar with, the recitations are divided into three stages: nyen-pa (approach [familiarization]), drub-pa (accomplishment), and lay-jor (activity), with each stage/mantra being said a certain number of times. A general rule for nyen-pa is to say the root mantra 100,000 times for each syllable with possibly another 100,000 for good measure, i.e., to make up any deficiencies. However, in the Paltrul sung-gyud (Paltrul Rinpoche's lineage of Longchen Nyingthig [as, for instance, carried on by Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche]), one typically does 11% over and beyond what the text stipulates. So, if the text says 100,000, the practitioner does 111,111. I agree with Dechen Norbu that it usually takes serious time and effort doing the root mantra before being able to make the activity mantra really work. I have also heard one Lama say (on several occasions) that reciting more than just a few of the activity mantra before having done the requisite nyen-pa and drub-pa is a breach of samaya that can shorten the Teacher's life. If that is true, then I think it goes without saying that it would also be bad for/dangerous to the sadhaka that did so.

And let's not forget Ngondro as a prerequisite to any sadhana. I wonder if one lifetime would be enough for a person with a job and a family to get to the point where he can use any action mantra according to the strictly traditional approach to Vajrayana.

Some larger cycles have one ngondro but a large number of yidams and also there are many Nyingma yidams and whole cycles that have no ngondro. I have done a few activity recitations although I been working full time whole my life and I also have a family.
Then of course there is also the question how many Yidams one actually need to practice as a Dzogchen practitioner?

/magnus

[Kilaya.]

Then of course there is also the question how many Yidams one actually need to practice as a Dzogchen practitioner?

/magnus

BTW, a yidam practice, too, can serve as one's main Dzogchen practice.

[Stewart]

Then of course there is also the question how many Yidams one actually need to practice as a Dzogchen practitioner?

/magnus

BTW, a yidam practice, too, can serve as one's main Dzogchen practice.

happy reading:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1154

[Malcolm]

Then of course there is also the question how many Yidams one actually need to practice as a Dzogchen practitioner?

/magnus

The answer is none. Zero.

[Sönam]

the old same story ...

Sönam

[Dronma]

Yes, Rinpoche' advice is to practise the quality recitation, but at the same time he is not refusing the quantity.
He says if someone cannot practise quality, then instead of saying useless things it is better to practise quantity.
Moreover from the book: "The Precious Vase: Instructions on the base of SMS", page 329:

THE PRACTICE OF MEDITATION AND MANTRAS OF THE THREE ROOTS
You should engage in the Anuyoga practice of the Three Roots - of Guru (Padma Thotrengtsal), Deva (Guru Tragpo or Guru Tragpur) and Dakini (Simhamukha) - with presence of a clear visualization and connecting the concentration with recitation of the mantra, doing seven hundred thousand, five hundred thousand or at least three hundred thousand recitations of each.

I hope this helps.