Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

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Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:30 am

a continuation of the side-topic emerging from this thread - http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=2985&p=80385#p80385 and Namdrol's comments around page 5...

so i'm intrigued by the implications of Dzogchen being the final meaning of all non-Buddhist teachings and was wondering if anyone could help lay it out for me and clear up any misconceptions i might have about such a comment. i vaguely recall a debate in here about whether a priest could practice Dzogchen and still lay claim to being a Christian or not - perhaps this is related.
thing is, how does such a view avoid sinking into a warm fuzzy syncretism where all paths lead to the same destination. because, as appealing as such a stance may admittedly appear, are there not too many irreconcilable differences for this to be true? or have i read your comments all wrong Namdrol?

disclaimer: i don't know a great deal about Dzogchen and lay no claims to an interest in practising it (just happy with my own school pure and simple tbh) but i recently read The Crystal and the Way of Light and it did perk my interest in learning more about it. as such please keep any replies terminology-lite if poss, cheers :smile:
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:28 am

Dharma is the ultimate consequence and Dzogchen is the result ... how could it not included all other paths?

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:45 am

Did you mean to say "cause" instead of consequence?

The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:00 pm

English is not my native language (as you may already know) ... but I thought ultimate consequence could correspond to Dzogchen being the final meaning of all non-Buddhist teachings

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:11 pm

I don't think you will get many non-Buddhist teachers to agree with that, but it would be interesting to try.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:17 pm

sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Fruitzilla » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:20 pm

Sounds like marketing to me.

I've seen "My Reincarnation this morning, and I can say from what I've seen that it looks not to be the case in what I'm studying/teaching.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:22 pm

dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.


Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:22 pm

catmoon wrote:I don't think you will get many non-Buddhist teachers to agree with that, but it would be interesting to try.


Once more ... how could it be otherwise?

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:24 pm

catmoon wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.


Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?


It would be stupid to tell him so ...

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:28 pm

catmoon wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.


Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?


Anabaptist or Pentecostal? lol, no - i'd be surprised if he did! and i'm puzzled how they can come down to Dzogchen - how do you do away with fundamental tenets that lead to big discrepencies between the two?
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:29 pm

Sönam wrote:
catmoon wrote:I don't think you will get many non-Buddhist teachers to agree with that, but it would be interesting to try.


Once more ... how could it be otherwise?

Sönam


Easy. You could be completely wrong and all of Buddhism too.

Less drastically, maybe a tiny error was made at some point in the past that snowballed into a mass of mistakes.

Those are the kinds of arguments the pastor will throw at you. And you can throw them back at him too. But nobody can prove anything.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Sönam » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:29 pm

dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.


Of course it matters, but if you see all religion (even those believing in an all-creating God) as a step on a great progressive path leading to freedom/buddhahood it has a sense ... but don't tell your pastor about (even in the Buddhist mandala don't tell it to loud)

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:38 pm

Sönam wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.


Of course it matters, but if you see all religion (even those believing in an all-creating God) as a step on a great progressive path leading to freedom/buddhahood it has a sense ... but don't tell your pastor about (even in the Buddhist mandala don't tell it to loud)

Sönam


okay, now i'm getting it. ty Sonam!
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Pero » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:Though my vehicles are inconceivable,
they are included in two categories:
samsara and nirvana.

--Rig pa rang shar tantra, the main explanatory tantra of Dzogchen.

I think my vehicles are inconcievable means that all the vehicles there are originate from the state of Dzogchen. Though it is so they can be included into two categories. Those leading to liberation (nirvana) and those leading to continuous cyclic existence (samsara).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Acchantika » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:14 pm

catmoon wrote:The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.


I don't think it is that controversial. There is a Dzogchen that is a body of beliefs and practices within Buddhism and a Dzogchen which is a synonym for the reality of things that is the former's namesake. All statements about Dzogchen as the essence of all teachings refers to the latter. Since the latter is simply reality, correctly apprehended, I think all Buddhists and non-Buddhists would agree that their aim is the correct apprehension of reality.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:21 pm

catmoon wrote:The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.


Actually, the point being made is that Dzocghen is the cause and basis for all dharma traditions, whether of samsara or nirvana. But I don't expect anyone to accept that.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:25 pm

Acchantika wrote:
catmoon wrote:The idea that Dharma is the cause and Dzogchen the result can't possibly be universal, simply because the are billions of Buddhists who are not Dzogchenpas.


I don't think it is that controversial. There is a Dzogchen that is a body of beliefs and practices within Buddhism and a Dzogchen which is a synonym for the reality of things that is the former's namesake. All statements about Dzogchen as the essence of all teachings refers to the latter. Since the latter is simply reality, correctly apprehended, I think all Buddhists and non-Buddhists would agree that their aim is the correct apprehension of reality.


And since, as you say, Dzogchen is not merely a school or method, but an epithet of reality as it actually is, it is argued that anything ever taught by the Buddha, being someone who'd realized reality as it actually is, had the intention of carrying people of greater or lesser spiritual acumen in the direction of realizing reality as it actually is - the great perfection, or Dzogchen.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Darmosiel » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:44 am

I guess I'm not understanding the original question. Are you asking if a Christian can attain Enlightenment? If so, I believe yes it is possible. Religion itself is only a vehicle what matters is awareness. Ending the duality. The end is only the other side of the same river.
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Re: Dzogchen, Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings...

Postby Darmosiel » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:07 am

catmoon wrote:
dumbbombu wrote:sorry, not getting it. :shrug:

isn't that akin to saying it doesn't matter what you follow as it all leads to enlightenment? apologies if i'm wrong.


Suppose you go down to the local Baptist church and tell the pastor, "Your teachings, and all of Christianity, indeed all religious teachings, come in the end, to a final, simple thing; the teachings of Dzogchen." Do you think he would agree?


:lol: Because if you said that you would be wrong. Dzogchen is like reaching the Ph.D level of study when all you have learned before falls into place and you become (hopefully) a Realized being. But, one can study, study, and study, and never each Enlightenment. Why do you think that is?
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