Dzogchen cosmogeny

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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Virgo » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:12 am

gad rgyangs wrote:where are these traces during the basis-bardo, in the basis itself? that doesn't sound plausible. we would then have a basis with latent awareness(es) and latent afflicted traces???

Otherwise, how could there ever be sentient beings?

Afflicted traces not being in the basis bardo there could be no non-recognition at all at any time.


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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:16 am

Maybe this forum is always this awesomely informative and it just goes right over my head, but the last week has been incredibly helpful for me in filling in vagueness and clarifying confusion. Thanks, Namdrol.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby wisdom » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:52 am

Namdrol wrote:No, the basis is self-originated wisdom; sentient beings arise from the condition of ignorance. The cause of their arising is the non-recognition of wisdom. Hence the term "buddhahood that returns the cause".

N


What is the meaning of "returning to the cause". Is it implying a return to the previous state? Would the Path of Seeing be classified as "returning to the cause" since one sees ones true nature but does not become permanently established in it, removing only innate, but not root ignorance? In essence, wisdom arises at some point and its seen yet its not recognized in the proper way, so enlightenment is only partial and one has to keep striving in order to properly recognize it?
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Sönam » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:22 am

I must add my thanks to others for this detailled (and clear) explanation ...

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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:46 pm

Sönam wrote:I must add my thanks to others for this detailled (and clear) explanation ...

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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:36 pm

wisdom wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, the basis is self-originated wisdom; sentient beings arise from the condition of ignorance. The cause of their arising is the non-recognition of wisdom. Hence the term "buddhahood that returns the cause".

N


What is the meaning of "returning to the cause".


Means returning to the state of the basis -- the basis is called the basis because it has not been realized. When it is realized, the basis is called the result. If it is realized imperfectly, then that is called a result that returns to the cause; when it is realized perfectly, then it is called "the result that does not return to the cause".

Please bear in mind that these things are theoretical, and they have very little if nothing at all to do with dailhy practice.
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby AilurusFulgens » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:
wisdom wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, the basis is self-originated wisdom; sentient beings arise from the condition of ignorance. The cause of their arising is the non-recognition of wisdom. Hence the term "buddhahood that returns the cause".

N


What is the meaning of "returning to the cause".


Means returning to the state of the basis -- the basis is called the basis because it has not been realized. When it is realized, the basis is called the result. If it is realized imperfectly, then that is called a result that returns to the cause; when it is realized perfectly, then it is called "the result that does not return to the cause".

Please bear in mind that these things are theoretical, and they have very little if nothing at all to do with dailhy practice.


This thread is more than fascinating and I would have one question in respect to Buddhas and pralaya.

Does it mean that whoever has not achieved the Rainbow Body of Great Transference i.e. the complete and final result of Dzogchen can fall back into a state of ignorance after the pralaya happens and then a new universe (or should I rather say multiverse) emerges?

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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:48 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Does it mean that whoever has not achieved the Rainbow Body of Great Transference i.e. the complete and final result of Dzogchen can fall back into a state of ignorance after the pralaya happens and then a new universe (or should I rather say multiverse) emerges?

A. Fulgens



No, one can acheive complete realization either in this life, at the time of death, or in the bardo of dharmatā.

If one is a Dzogchen practitioner, even of one is a best an average practitioner i.e. the lowest capacity, there are methods to ensure rebirth in the five pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, where one will attain samyaksambuddhahood within five hundred human years, according to the texts.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby alpha » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
Does it mean that whoever has not achieved the Rainbow Body of Great Transference i.e. the complete and final result of Dzogchen can fall back into a state of ignorance after the pralaya happens and then a new universe (or should I rather say multiverse) emerges?

A. Fulgens



No, one can acheive complete realization either in this life, at the time of death, or in the bardo of dharmatā.

If one is a Dzogchen practitioner, even of one is a best an average practitioner i.e. the lowest capacity, there are methods to ensure rebirth in the five pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, where one will attain samyaksambuddhahood within five hundred human years, according to the texts.


Namdrol, and what would those methods be ,if i may ask?

Is not that i am an average practitioner but i hope that one day i will come to engender the hope of becoming a beginner and thus i could be called a proper "average practitioner"

I find the knowledge in this tread extremely fascinating.
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:35 pm

alpha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
Does it mean that whoever has not achieved the Rainbow Body of Great Transference i.e. the complete and final result of Dzogchen can fall back into a state of ignorance after the pralaya happens and then a new universe (or should I rather say multiverse) emerges?

A. Fulgens



No, one can acheive complete realization either in this life, at the time of death, or in the bardo of dharmatā.

If one is a Dzogchen practitioner, even of one is a best an average practitioner i.e. the lowest capacity, there are methods to ensure rebirth in the five pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, where one will attain samyaksambuddhahood within five hundred human years, according to the texts.


Namdrol, and what would those methods be ,if i may ask?

Is not that i am an average practitioner but i hope that one day i will come to engender the hope of becoming a beginner and thus i could be called a proper "average practitioner"

I find the knowledge in this tread extremely fascinating.


Rushan.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby padma norbu » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:39 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:Namdrol, and what would those methods be ,if i may ask?

Namdrol wrote:Rushan.

N


As found in that little pamphlet The Practice of Purification of the Six Lokas?
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:14 pm

padma norbu wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:Namdrol, and what would those methods be ,if i may ask?

Namdrol wrote:Rushan.

N


As found in that little pamphlet The Practice of Purification of the Six Lokas?


Yes, that among other rushans.

'khor 'das ru shan practices are called "seperation of samsara and nirvana" is that successful completion of them guarantees one will not longer be reborn in samsara, equivalent with attaining patience on the path of application.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Mr. G » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:28 pm

    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:53 am

so even fully enlightened Buddhas never really eliminate all afflictions, and the traces of those afflictions remaining after the universe dissolves back into the basis are what become the "seeds" for the next universe. the latent awareness(es) in the bardo-basis become buddhas or sentient beings depending on their recognition or not of the appearances that flash forth because of the latent afflictions. without the latent afflictions causing an "itch" (so to speak) in the basis and thus provoking the wisdoms to flash forth, the awareness(es) would remain latent, and there would be no beings, enlightened or not. in that case, personally, i'm thankful for afflicted traces!
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:07 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:so even fully enlightened Buddhas never really eliminate all afflictions


Samyak Sambuddhas fully eliminate traces. Hence the "samyak". Dzogchen texts speak of them achieving parinirvana.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:14 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:so even fully enlightened Buddhas never really eliminate all afflictions


Samyak Sambuddhas fully eliminate traces. Hence the "samyak". Dzogchen texts speak of them achieving parinirvana.

N


so when you said earlier:

there are no sentient beings at the time of the latent basis, because all sentient beings, theoretically, acheived some kind of buddhahood in the last eon.


"some kind of buddhahood" includes types that leave traces ("returning to the cause" kind?) and the samyak kind, that does not entail getting re-absorbed into the basis during the bardo period?
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:53 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:so even fully enlightened Buddhas never really eliminate all afflictions


Samyak Sambuddhas fully eliminate traces. Hence the "samyak". Dzogchen texts speak of them achieving parinirvana.

N


so when you said earlier:

there are no sentient beings at the time of the latent basis, because all sentient beings, theoretically, acheived some kind of buddhahood in the last eon.


"some kind of buddhahood" includes types that leave traces ("returning to the cause" kind?) and the samyak kind, that does not entail getting re-absorbed into the basis during the bardo period?


Everything from stream enterers up to the 12th bhumi.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:Everything from stream enterers up to the 12th bhumi.


are you saying up to and including 12th bhumi has traces and gets re-absorbed? 13th-16th counts as samyak sambuddha and doesn't get re-absorbed? so where do they hang out during that bardo period? and if the basis is rang byung ye shes, are they then not "grounded" in it (so to speak), not needing to "return" to it?
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:56 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Everything from stream enterers up to the 12th bhumi.


are you saying up to and including 12th bhumi has traces and gets re-absorbed? 13th-16th counts as samyak sambuddha and doesn't get re-absorbed? so where do they hang out during that bardo period? and if the basis is rang byung ye shes, are they then not "grounded" in it (so to speak), not needing to "return" to it?


Those who have completed the fourth vision experience the universe arising as the basis [snang srid gzhir bzhengs].
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen cosmogeny

Postby gad rgyangs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:Those who have completed the fourth vision experience the universe arising as the basis [snang srid gzhir bzhengs].


what is the "basis" of that experience? it can't be the same basis, as that would be circular.
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