The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

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The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.

The result does not arise from a cause.


Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.
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Re: The individual in dzogchen, independence, dharmakaya

Postby Sönam » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:22 pm

The basis is present in essence, nature, and compassion. By the flow of the energy of primordial wisdom, the appearances of the intrinsic awareness bright out from the basis. From the power of compassion arise the aspects of samsara. By not apprehending those appearances as others, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease. By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions.


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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: The individual in dzogchen, independence, dharmakaya

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Sönam wrote:
The basis is present in essence, nature, and compassion. By the flow of the energy of primordial wisdom, the appearances of the intrinsic awareness bright out from the basis. From the power of compassion arise the aspects of samsara. By not apprehending those appearances as others, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease. By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions.


Sönam


Hi Sonam,

In the quote, there is the act of realization though:

    By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:12 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.

The result does not arise from a cause.


Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.



The result does not depend on the two accumulations.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:36 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.

The result does not arise from a cause.


Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.


Mr. G wrote:Hi Sonam,

In the quote, there is the act of realization though:

    By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions


What's the difference?

Namdrol wrote:The result does not depend on the two accumulations.


Namdrol has reaffirmed it.

Sonam's quote:
The basis is present in essence, nature, and compassion. By the flow of the energy of primordial wisdom, the appearances of the intrinsic awareness bright out from the basis. From the power of compassion arise the aspects of samsara. By not apprehending those appearances as others, the movements of the intrinsic awareness cease. By realizing the self-essence of the self-appearances, the realization develops, deslusions are dispelled.This is the self-liberation through the realization of the essence, Buddhahood. By not realizing the essence of the appearances of the basis as they are, one become distracted in delusions.


^ Compare this with an exchange I had with Namdrol yesterday:
Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote: It seems there is a quality of awareness which contains all knowledge and which is shared by everything in various quantities like an energy of some sort, basically, and then you basically contact and capture bits of this awareness like lightning bugs in a jar.



Yes, it is called thugs rjes which expresses itself as rtsal or energy.

N


From RigpaWiki: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/thugs_rje
thugs rje

ཐུགས་རྗེ།
compassion, power, benevolence, kindness * rtsal/ gdangs, mercy, good heart, responsiveness, energy, compassionate energy/ quality/ expression, karuna, [ever responsive] energy, [merciful w] grace, felt reality, resonance, spirituality, * thanks. (IW)
(innate) responsiveness*; isc. greatness of mind.
(RB)

karuna, energy, compassion, grace, favor, mercy, blessing, value, compassionate (responsiveness, expression), noble (purpose, heart), generosity, pity, commiseration, responsiveness, felt reality, resonance, omnipresent (compassion, power), potentiality of energy, potentiality of manifestation, potentiality of manifestation of energy (see also gdangs, rol pa, rtsal), 1 of chos gsum, innate compassionate responsiveness, potentiality of one's state, potentiality of compassionate energy, potentiality of compassion-energy, responsiveness, capacity. (JV)

compassion, power, benevolence, kindness [E g, snying rje is more feeling pity or sorry for someone (vctr] compassion, kindness, benevolence, rtsal, gdangs. grace, compassion [h] snying rje. kind[ness], mercy, good heart, benevolence, responsiveness, energy, compassionate energy/ quality/ expression, karuna. energy, ever responsive energies, merciful w grace, responsiveness, felt reality, resonance, spirituality, [quality of nirmanakaya according to the Great Perfection. [Gd] thanks, the buddha-body of perfect rapture, and the spirituality. [Gd] tse. bka' nyes thugs rje gang che. (IW)
1) karuna, (h) of snying rje compassion, kindness, benevolence, grace, kindness, mercy, good heart, kind, benevolence, responsiveness merciful with grace. 2) Syn rtsal / gdangs capacity, expression, energy, compassionate energy / quality / expression, ever responsive energies, resonance, spirituality. (RY)

compassion, [power] benevolence, kindness [Notes: means both kind and powerful the intention or inspiration to be kind is bka' 'drin this is the fruition of that--the actual action whereas thugs rje is being generous, accommodating, snying rje is more feeling pity or sorry for someone (vctr). rtsal, gdangs. grace, compassion [h] snying rje. mercy, good heart, kind, responsiveness, energy, compassionate energy/quality/expression, karuna. energy, ever responsive energies, merciful with grace, responsiveness, felt reality, resonance, spirituality. quality of the emanational body according to the Great Perfection. [Gd-mk]. thanks, the buddha-body of perfect rapture, and the spirituality [Gd-mk]. [tserig]. snying rje. [IW]
Capacity. (RY)
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:40 pm

I wonder how much this can account for synchronicity and strange-seeming coincidences. Seems a lot of people in the same fields or circles of friends experience similar things at similar times, almost as if a wave of karma comes along and says, "right, we'll take care of the lot of them at once, wherever they are" and you have people independently discovering the same ideas all at once. There's even a well-known phenomena in science where independent researchers across the globe suddenly discover the same thing all at once.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:40 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Sentient beings occur through non-recognition of the basis.

The result does not arise from a cause.


Would you be able to elaborate on this? I'm stuck on the notion that recognition or non-recognition is a "cause" of sorts that enables the result.


The result does not depend on the two accumulations.


Hi Namdrol,

Is my following crude understanding correct?:

The basis was not recognized as being orignally pure and free of afflictions which initiated samsara and nirvana. However, we can't call the act of "recognition" a real act or cause due to the the basis which possesses a nature, essence and compassion. So it is not the individual that is "recognizing", but it is the intelligence of the basis that is at work.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:06 pm

Mr. G wrote:
The basis was not recognized as being orignally pure and free of afflictions which initiated samsara and nirvana. However, we can't call the act of "recognition" a real act or cause due to the the basis which possesses a nature, essence and compassion. So it is not the individual that is "recognizing", but it is the intelligence of the basis that is at work.


The three wisdoms, essence, nature and compassion, are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path. When they are realized, they are called the result.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:....are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path.

N


Hi Namdrol,

What "causes" the act of recognition?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:11 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:....are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path.

N


Hi Namdrol,

What "causes" the act of recognition?


It is more like, what is the condition for recognition. The condition for recognition is the stirring of the basis
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:18 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:....are called the basis (aka bodhicitta in sems sde) when they are not recognized. When they are recognized, they are called the path.

N


Hi Namdrol,

What "causes" the act of recognition?


Interesting, I did not realize this is what you were asking. Glad to have observed this discussion. Off to stir some basis...
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:16 pm

padma norbu wrote:Interesting, I did not realize this is what you were asking. Glad to have observed this discussion. Off to stir some basis...


It's all good.

:stirthepot: <----- Basis being stirred :lol:
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:It is more like, what is the condition for recognition. The condition for recognition is the stirring of the basis


Hi Namdrol,

Hmmm. At a simple level of understanding, I think the conditions would be movement of the air element stirring the trace afflictions from the past eon. I'm not sure how this correlates to the neutral awareness in either recognition or non-recognition of the basis though. Is it that within the trace afflictions there is some form of merit or wisdom that flips the switch of "recognition or non-recognition"? There must be some form of causes and conditions that enables recognition or non-recognition?
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:54 pm

Hi Namdrol,

Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":

The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:

merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.

Does this sound about right?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Mr. G wrote:Hi Namdrol,

Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":

The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:

merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.

Does this sound about right?



Not at the time fo the basis; after the basis has arisen and samsara and nirvana have split, then this is correct. I.e. it is correct for sentient being. At the time of the basis however there are neither buddhas nor sentient beings, hence it is called the bardo of samsara and nirvana.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Lack of Cause and Result in Dzogchen

Postby Mr. G » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:44 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Hi Namdrol,

Perhaps I was being a bit more granular than I wanted to be. This is the context in which I was using the word "causation":

The accumulation of merit leads to the meeting of Dzogchen teachings, which leads to receiving Direct Introduction, which leads to the eventual recognition of rigpa. So:

merit ---> Direct Introduction ---> recognition of rigpa.

Does this sound about right?



Not at the time fo the basis; after the basis has arisen and samsara and nirvana have split, then this is correct. I.e. it is correct for sentient being. At the time of the basis however there are neither buddhas nor sentient beings, hence it is called the bardo of samsara and nirvana.

N


Thank you Namdrol. This clarifies a lot.
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