Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:43 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote: We are told that if we have visions of deities not to hold too much importance to that


Because those visions are mental projections, based on mind.

and yet here we have world-famous teachers writing entire series of books based on visions from deities.


Because this teacher has knowledge of his real state, and because he is expert in dream yoga, the display of his wisdom manifests as teachers and deties that communicate knowledge which he then commits to writing.

And he also has provided the method by which we may know the difference between karmic dreams (based on on mind) and dreams of clarity (based on wisdom).

N


So... why is it necessary to receive knowledge from something "other" at all? Why can't he just know these teachings if they come from his real nature without the necessity of a manifestation of wisdom display to communicate it back to himself?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:59 pm

padma norbu wrote:
So... why is it necessary to receive knowledge from something "other" at all? Why can't he just know these teachings if they come from his real nature without the necessity of a manifestation of wisdom display to communicate it back to himself?


Because he has a body, and therefore a mind, and in the state of dreams, everyone has seven times more clarity than when they are awake.

Also while he is a realized person, he says he is not a completely realized person at the end of the path.

You also have this same state, so, you might as well ask yourself why you are not spontaneously receiving these teachings, etc.

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:59 pm

Paul wrote:
heart wrote:Yeah, great post Adamantine. My Guru never made any long retreats but once, maybe 15 years ago, he accidentally made spend an afternoon with him in his reception room. His incredible kindness and skillfulness while constantly receiving people from all walks of life and all parts of the world and serving them without bias and without a moment of rest for himself was a very convincing display of enlightened activity. It was at that time that he also took time giving me the direct introduction for the first time.

/magnus


Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche?


Yes.

/magnus
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
So... why is it necessary to receive knowledge from something "other" at all? Why can't he just know these teachings if they come from his real nature without the necessity of a manifestation of wisdom display to communicate it back to himself?


Because he has a body, and therefore a mind, and in the state of dreams, everyone has seven times more clarity than when they are awake.

Also while he is a realized person, he says he is not a completely realized person at the end of the path.

You also have this same state, so, you might as well ask yourself why you are not spontaneously receiving these teachings, etc.

N


I do wonder. Funny to think that I could, perhaps, spontaneously receive such teachings if I performed enough dualistic rituals such as offerings to them, or unifying them with my own awareness over and over.

His real nature IS fully realized and at the end of the path (because it never entered into confusion), is sending back smoke signals, basically. It seems there is a quality of awareness which contains all knowledge and which is shared by everything in various quantities like an energy of some sort, basically, and then you basically contact and capture bits of this awareness like lightning bugs in a jar.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:33 pm

padma norbu wrote: It seems there is a quality of awareness which contains all knowledge and which is shared by everything in various quantities like an energy of some sort, basically, and then you basically contact and capture bits of this awareness like lightning bugs in a jar.



Yes, it is called thugs rjes which expresses itself as rtsal or energy.

N
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Paul » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:28 pm

heart wrote:
Paul wrote:
heart wrote:Yeah, great post Adamantine. My Guru never made any long retreats but once, maybe 15 years ago, he accidentally made spend an afternoon with him in his reception room. His incredible kindness and skillfulness while constantly receiving people from all walks of life and all parts of the world and serving them without bias and without a moment of rest for himself was a very convincing display of enlightened activity. It was at that time that he also took time giving me the direct introduction for the first time.

/magnus


Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche?


Yes.

/magnus


Thought so. I've also had the opportunity to spend some time with him, although only a few hours. He is an incredible, incredible teacher. His ability to magnetise people was amazing, as his his ability to introduce people to the nature of their minds - I've never seen anyone like him.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:53 pm

Paul wrote:Thought so. I've also had the opportunity to spend some time with him, although only a few hours. He is an incredible, incredible teacher. His ability to magnetise people was amazing, as his his ability to introduce people to the nature of their minds - I've never seen anyone like him.


I agree. I met him first 27 years ago, just walked right in to his reception room on my second day on my first trip to Nepal. I was looking for a room to rent and he just blow my mind by laughing right out loud. Took refuge with him a few month later. All Tulku Urgyen's sons are quite extraordinary.

/magnus
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:15 pm

heart wrote:
Paul wrote:Thought so. I've also had the opportunity to spend some time with him, although only a few hours. He is an incredible, incredible teacher. His ability to magnetise people was amazing, as his his ability to introduce people to the nature of their minds - I've never seen anyone like him.


I agree. I met him first 27 years ago, just walked right in to his reception room on my second day on my first trip to Nepal. I was looking for a room to rent and he just blow my mind by laughing right out loud. Took refuge with him a few month later. All Tulku Urgyen's sons are quite extraordinary.

/magnus


Is it really that easy to just go to Nepal and find someone to teach you or give you direct introduction or something? I feel like more than a 2-week vacation would be necessary, as well as lots of planning.

One of the best books I ever read was by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (Present Fresh Wakefulness) and I remember feeling like I was profoundly "getting it" back then. I read this bookended by two or three of Tulku Urgyen's books having no idea Chokyi was his son and . That was a good few months in general. I'm not exactly sure how long before, but I also read Carefree Dignity by Tsoknyi Rinpoche at this time, who I just discovered is another son of Tulku Urgyen's. Now would probably be a good time to read the remaining Tulku Urgyen books I have not read yet. I have two or three.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Pero » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:You also have this same state, so, you might as well ask yourself why you are not spontaneously receiving these teachings, etc.

Yeah, Rinpoche has said something to the effect that we could also receive teachings like him if we develop enough, though perhaps not exactly Longsal hehe.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby heart » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:34 pm

padma norbu wrote:
heart wrote:
Paul wrote:Thought so. I've also had the opportunity to spend some time with him, although only a few hours. He is an incredible, incredible teacher. His ability to magnetise people was amazing, as his his ability to introduce people to the nature of their minds - I've never seen anyone like him.


I agree. I met him first 27 years ago, just walked right in to his reception room on my second day on my first trip to Nepal. I was looking for a room to rent and he just blow my mind by laughing right out loud. Took refuge with him a few month later. All Tulku Urgyen's sons are quite extraordinary.

/magnus


Is it really that easy to just go to Nepal and find someone to teach you or give you direct introduction or something? I feel like more than a 2-week vacation would be necessary, as well as lots of planning.

One of the best books I ever read was by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (Present Fresh Wakefulness) and I remember feeling like I was profoundly "getting it" back then. I read this bookended by two or three of Tulku Urgyen's books having no idea Chokyi was his son and . That was a good few months in general. I'm not exactly sure how long before, but I also read Carefree Dignity by Tsoknyi Rinpoche at this time, who I just discovered is another son of Tulku Urgyen's. Now would probably be a good time to read the remaining Tulku Urgyen books I have not read yet. I have two or three.


No PN, there are many years between me meeting Rinpoche and taking refuge and when I received direct introduction. You can't go wrong with Tulku Urgyen or any of his sons, in my opinion. If you can go and see a master that inspire you it might resolve some of your problems. Anyway, I wish you good luck!

/magnus
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:50 am

heart wrote:Yeah, great post Adamantine. My Guru never made any long retreats but once, maybe 15 years ago, he accidentally made spend an afternoon with him in his reception room. His incredible kindness and skillfulness while constantly receiving people from all walks of life and all parts of the world and serving them without bias and without a moment of rest for himself was a very convincing display of enlightened activity. It was at that time that he also took time giving me the direct introduction for the first time.

/magnus


Some great beings don't need to do long retreats this time around. . .

Wonderful story, :thanks:
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby muni » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:47 am

padma norbu: "The more I try or don't try, read or don't read, the more time goes by and I realize that whatever I thought I understood........."



Confusion. All must be at once through texts/books. Soon in each free newspaper given in Oxford street London, not only your horoscope but also a daily Terma.

"We must take care with clinging to the highest view while looking down to other Dharma practices". Guru Rinpoche.

Our thinking mind don't recognize the simple Dharmakaya master, is trusting its' own thoughts and known names, phenomena...Dharmakaya teacher for us available is recognized by "ripened" mind. So is there been told. Some study honestly whole life long..........

In humility and confidence; DEVOTION/FAITH need not to be cultivated.


Many clouds are elaborating a lot about how sky is, simple sky just remain.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby muni » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:19 am

...still texts are needful, very useful in general teachings, without clinging to them as real, this in order to widening insight/progress is me told. Keeping courage without expectations.


Regarding "Dzogchen practice", there is a saying I once heard about "concepts about":

no need to see by the light of a torch the light of the candle flame out there in the room, as the light of the flame is already self illuminating.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:42 pm

One last question, then: when everything is destroyed at the end a world age, do the Buddhas survive that or not?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:23 pm

padma norbu wrote:One last question, then: when everything is destroyed at the end a world age, do the Buddhas survive that or not?



This is one of those fourteen questions....
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:24 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:One last question, then: when everything is destroyed at the end a world age, do the Buddhas survive that or not?



This is one of those fourteen questions....


How weird, just read those 14 questions on my subway ride in Dalai Lama's book "The Universe In A Single Atom."
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Nemo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:44 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote: We are told that if we have visions of deities not to hold too much importance to that


Because those visions are mental projections, based on mind.

and yet here we have world-famous teachers writing entire series of books based on visions from deities.


Because this teacher has knowledge of his real state, and because he is expert in dream yoga, the display of his wisdom manifests as teachers and deties that communicate knowledge which he then commits to writing.

And he also has provided the method by which we may know the difference between karmic dreams (based on on mind) and dreams of clarity (based on wisdom).

N


Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
So... why is it necessary to receive knowledge from something "other" at all? Why can't he just know these teachings if they come from his real nature without the necessity of a manifestation of wisdom display to communicate it back to himself?


Because he has a body, and therefore a mind, and in the state of dreams, everyone has seven times more clarity than when they are awake.

Also while he is a realized person, he says he is not a completely realized person at the end of the path.

You also have this same state, so, you might as well ask yourself why you are not spontaneously receiving these teachings, etc.

N


You sound like a scholar, not a yogi. When I was under my Masters supervision one night I woke up to see his body made of light at the head of my bed. I could feel it pulling the frustration and pain out of my body. I looked straight at him and my mouth dropped open. The apparition looked startled that I could see it. It then disappeared and I felt a calming influence and fell back to sleep. The next day he put on his poker face with the tiny smile and asked how I slept. Later we talked about it. I had been toiling around the monastery for quite some time. He told me that he was doing tonglen that night and was very surprised someone like me could see him.

Such a yogi can easily enter the dreams of his students.He often did, even after death. All things are the play of awareness. But to say the Guru is your own personal projection is a very miserly view of the universe IMO. There is no other way to realize Dzog Chen than the grace of the Buddhas. While they may be your own Mind, they are not your own mind. Great Masters directly transmit the experience. They are the most precious thing in the universe.

I think that reading a book about dzog chen without a Masters supervision is about as useful as reading a book on brain surgery. You will never become a brain surgeon by reading a book about it. I wouldn't even read most books on Dzog Chen without my Masters permission. This is old school working class Dharma.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:54 pm

Nemo wrote: I think that reading a book about dzog chen without a Masters supervision is about as useful as reading a book on brain surgery.


Agreed, fortunately I have all necessary transmissions and instructions. Thanks.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Virgo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:57 pm

Nemo wrote: I think that reading a book about dzog chen without a Masters supervision is about as useful as reading a book on brain surgery. You will never become a brain surgeon by reading a book about it. I wouldn't even read most books on Dzog Chen without my Masters permission. This is old school working class Dharma.

Hi Nemo. For the student his master is a mirror of himself, and his self is a mirror of the master. Not duel. Your intuition is also part of the Guru's advice. Following it is following the Guru. Inward is where the guru lies, in yoru heart. But the external master points to it. And they are one.

Kevin
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Clarence » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:00 pm

Nemo,

If I may ask, who was your master? Sounds like you are very fortunate.

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