Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

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Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:24 pm

The more I try or don't try, read or don't read, the more time goes by and I realize that whatever I thought I understood at one time about it (and therefore Buddhism in general) is less and less sensible.

Basically, here's where I am in my thoughts about this at this point:

By not doing anything other than maintaining awareness of instantly present awareness itself which is not particularly identified with self or other and by not following along with arising thoughts and losing awareness of this instantly present awareness, we can somehow become free of all limitation.

But, if by chance something does happen which appears extraordinary such as spectacular visions or some siddhis, then we should remember that this is all mental phenomena and not become attached to it or fascinated by it or give too much importance to it.

If we want, we can say mantras and perform rituals which will somehow aid us in this process of ultimate liberation relatively through this convoluted experience of misunderstood mental phenomena which we call samsara. And this "samsara," while not a Buddha Pure Land, is still the magical display of the Buddhas which exists perfectly for our benefit.

There is nothing really to do and nowhere to go as an escape from this world of suffering we wish to escape. When we achieve our goal of ultimate liberation, we then spontaneously manifest for the benefit of other beings. We then have perfect control of our incarnations and may manifest as multiple beings... although, for some reason, despite this ultimate liberation and perfection of wisdom, these human incarnations we have "perfect control of" seem to display amnesia and must re-learn all the wisdom which their previous incarnations have already learned and which was known perfectly when the spontaneous manifestation occurred.

Somewhere beyond time, outside of time, this perfected Buddhahood someone has recognized which is not different from any other buddha, exists for the benefit of beings in perfect wisdom while its many manifestations incarnate with amnesia to help others to become buddhas and, by the way, to become buddhas themselves. So, the manifestations of the buddhas apparently need to become buddhas, too.

It all seems like all the ideas are self-annihilating in the sense any single idea related to this whole pursuit cancels itself out no matter how brilliant or pure it is.

Corrections welcome. Please quote the paragraph you are correcting.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:40 pm

If you're wondering where this comes from, I just read this thinking that it was only skim-worthy, but got rather absorbed in thought about each point:
http://transmissiononline.org/issue-pri ... -awareness

Definitely not written as well as a nice, modern dharma book like my favorite authors, but I feel like this is not the only reason I relaxed back in my chair after and thought to myself "wtf am I doing with my life?"
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:46 pm

padma norbu wrote:...


One's rigpa is embodied, it exists in a body. How it exists in a body is the root of understanding all Dzogchen teachings.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:...


One's rigpa is embodied, it exists in a body. How it exists in a body is the root of understanding all Dzogchen teachings.


I'm certain that was supposed to be helpful, but I'm going to need more than that. Also, "..." is not what I meant by "please quote the paragraph you are correcting." Is there something above in particular which you are attempting to correct by this statement?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:55 pm

padma norbu wrote:If you're wondering where this comes from, I just read this thinking that it was only skim-worthy, but got rather absorbed in thought about each point:
http://transmissiononline.org/issue-pri ... -awareness


I don't know, but can we be sure that the author of that paper understands Dzogchen? :shrug:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Virgo » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:03 pm

Padma, it's all frak ideas. Just relax, be natural. Once you get caught up in an idea-- any idea, you are lost. Be natural. Dzogchen is like drinking tea.

Kevin
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Pero » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Mr. G wrote:
padma norbu wrote:If you're wondering where this comes from, I just read this thinking that it was only skim-worthy, but got rather absorbed in thought about each point:
http://transmissiononline.org/issue-pri ... -awareness


I don't know, but can we be sure that the author of that paper understands Dzogchen? :shrug:

After a glance I'd bet he actually doesn't...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Mr. G wrote:
padma norbu wrote:If you're wondering where this comes from, I just read this thinking that it was only skim-worthy, but got rather absorbed in thought about each point:
http://transmissiononline.org/issue-pri ... -awareness


I don't know, but can we be sure that the author of that paper understands Dzogchen? :shrug:


How can I be sure anyone does? How are we not sure it's just an elaborate collection of beliefs about some elusive reality that we could perhaps learn through easier means?

The more time goes by, the less faith I have that I will ever achieve whatever it is I'm supposed to get from this whole thing. Even just the lesser achievements like siddhis or jhanas or whatever (things which I have so little interest in that I don't even know the various siddhis and jhanas, actually, only that such experiences are supposedly possible and each one can become an obstacle).

Imagine being able to subdue monstrously powerful demonic manifestations to the point that you never stray from the realization that they are merely mental phenomena. This is what Padmasambhava and others did. If you'd like a taste of this, you could try chöd or something, but a better way to see just how powerful this mental phenomena is would be to get yourself a nice grimoire and whip up some demons. Try that for a little while and see what you're up against... and... yeah, you're going to overcome THAT by sitting on your bum and watching your mind. Seems reasonable. Or, wait, I mean it seems like an utter load of bollocks that the key to ultimate, infinite, extreme power over all reality is in this little teensy tiny heart drop of mine if I just find a way to crack it open and look at it right... whether it's true or not, one thing I'm definitely sure of: one could easily waste an entire lifetime in sitting contemplation and wind up with nothing but a calloused ass. I'm turning into a pretty calloused ass myself, as you can see.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:07 pm

Virgo wrote:Padma, it's all frak ideas. Just relax, be natural. Once you get caught up in an idea-- any idea, you are lost. Be natural. Dzogchen is like drinking tea.

Kevin


I can drink tea without any knowledge of dzogchen at all.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:08 pm

Pero wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
padma norbu wrote:If you're wondering where this comes from, I just read this thinking that it was only skim-worthy, but got rather absorbed in thought about each point:
http://transmissiononline.org/issue-pri ... -awareness


I don't know, but can we be sure that the author of that paper understands Dzogchen? :shrug:

After a glance I'd bet he actually doesn't...


I thought that too...didn't feel writing it as bluntly as you did. :lol:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:14 pm

Subject and object are manifestations of the awareness field within the awareness field as the awareness field…there is duality within non-duality. There is duality within oneness of non-duality within the nature of the immanent plane of awareness. Subject and objects are spontaneous manifestations of the one luminous plane of awareness. Duality is the manifestation of non-duality and takes place within non-duality as non- duality. We might say we live in a non-dual duality or duality within non-dualness. This is bliss of magical realism.


This is the bliss of getting hookd on words, more words, still more and more vague words, I'm afraid. And of speaking them to oneself, too. The wordiness of worded words in the wordedness of words. :alien:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:16 pm

Mr. G wrote:Namdrol who translates for both Chogyal Namkhai Norbu


I have done translations at the encouragement of ChNN, but I don't translate for the community.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:18 pm

padma norbu wrote:Imagine being able to subdue monstrously powerful demonic manifestations to the point that you never stray from the realization that they are merely mental phenomena.



The most powerful demonic manifestation is the misconception of "I" that started the whole process of samsara.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Virgo » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:19 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Virgo wrote:Padma, it's all frak ideas. Just relax, be natural. Once you get caught up in an idea-- any idea, you are lost. Be natural. Dzogchen is like drinking tea.

Kevin


I can drink tea without any knowledge of dzogchen at all.

I didn't say it is drinking tea, I said it is like.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:19 pm

padma norbu wrote:If you're wondering where this comes from, I just read this thinking that it was only skim-worthy, but got rather absorbed in thought about each point:
http://transmissiononline.org/issue-pri ... -awareness

Definitely not written as well as a nice, modern dharma book like my favorite authors, but I feel like this is not the only reason I relaxed back in my chair after and thought to myself "wtf am I doing with my life?"


What's this?

Many forms of eastern philosophy both Vedantic and Buddhist utterly deny duality by denying otherness. The Madhyamaka (Buddhist - all phenomena are empty of "substance" or "essence" meaning that they have no intrinsic, independent reality apart from the causes and conditions from which they arose.) , Advaita (Hindu – non-duality) Vedanta believe that in the non-dual absolute the subject object duality is totally negated. Subjectivity is negated; reality of the vessel of the world is negated. Incarnation is negated. This crass and gross idealism is dissociative and illusionary at best. In the denial of otherness as the non-dual experience of solipsism is resultant….a kind of attachment disorder is fabricated…The Dzogchen of Longchenpa is without the denial of otherness and is an expression of magical realism.
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Virgo » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:30 pm

You have to understand when Sems (mind) is going butt ass wild.

For example, when you start saying, "how do I do this?" "Am I supposed to just relax or what I don't get it at all", that is Sems. So relax beyond that. Don't try and don't try not to try. Be natural. Natural. Why? Cause things are naturally pure and perfect but we don't see it because Sems is the lens that we look through. So separate the two.

Kevin

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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Namdrol who translates for both Chogyal Namkhai Norbu


I have done translations at the encouragement of ChNN, but I don't translate for the community.

N


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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby padma norbu » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:40 pm

Virgo wrote:You have to understand when Sems (mind) is going butt ass wild.

For example, when you start saying, "how do I do this?" "Am I supposed to just relax or what I don't get it at all", that is Sems. So relax beyond that. Don't try and don't try not to try. Be natural. Natural. Why? Cause things are naturally pure and perfect but we don't see it because Sems is the lens that we look through. So separate the two.

Kevin

Kevin


I just don't see it going anywhere. My practice isn't getting any better and I have no reason to believe it ever will. But, if it does, theoretically, result in Buddhahood, then you no longer exist in the way you thought you did, but spontaneously manifest for the benefit of beings as a being which once again needs to awaken to Buddhahood. Seems a bit silly, doesn't it? And then, like, doesn't everything get destroyed in fire after a few bazillion kalpas anyway?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Virgo » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:40 pm

Five lights. It's all there. Sems is a distortion of this, but the basis is always the basis, it is always there, so to speak-- attainable (that is, knowledge of it) at any moment. Don't expect a big bang, fireworks or anything-- it is sems that expects those. It is beyond that. So there is one word to follow-- relax.

That is how you practice Trecko. Being in that state is Vidya. And having presence means have knowledge of that and operating from that level of being.

So it is all very frak simple. Nothing is more simple. People can't handle it because it is too simple.

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Re: Yeah, Dzogchen is confusing

Postby Virgo » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:46 pm

padma norbu wrote:but spontaneously manifest for the benefit of beings

When you think of "beings" you are *not* looking from the angle of your nature. You are looking from the angle of mind. That's the road to samsara. There are only two roads in Dzogchen.

So you want to head East ( :) ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3PJEZcA4Kw

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