The essence of Dzogchen

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The essence of Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:33 pm

Tashi delek ,

Stupid question maybe, but what would be the essence of the Dzogchen (Teachings)?


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Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:10 pm

You are.
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:17 pm

Nangwa wrote:You are.



Tashi delek,

We are ?

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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:26 pm

Can't really be captured in words. It's kinda like the taste of ginger or something.. You can describe it to the best of your ability; say it's sweet or strong.. But the description doesn't really convey the real taste. Or another analogy would be trying to describe the color blue to someone who was born blind and has never seen colors. To know the essence in dzogchen is to taste it, experience it, and then integrate that taste into every aspect of experience so it's embodied... But not "embodied"... The words get tricky!

There's other metaphors to describe the essence... A mirror is used, in that the quality of the mirror is to reflect but remain unscathed by that which it reflects. And that it doesn't hold it's reflections. Or a crystal ball is used too. The ball acts as an aperture through which light passes.. And it seems to have the colors of things which are around it "on it" or "in it" but really it just reflects it's surroundings and remains crystal clear and untouched.

So these metaphors attempt to describe your true nature, which is the essence of dzogchen. Other than that, all practices and teachings related to it are only to aid in you discovering this and maintaining it. But he's right up above. You're it... But not you as in the "the story" of you... Not who you take yourself to be.
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:47 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Nangwa wrote:You are.



Tashi delek,

We are ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

Yup.
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:16 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek ,

Stupid question maybe, but what be the essence of the Dzogchen (Teachings)?


Mutsog Marro
KY



Knowing your own state.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:15 pm

Tashi delek,


Mind, as the non-ego centric mind would be the essence in Dzogchen.


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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:36 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,


Mind, as the non-ego centric mind would be the essence in Dzogchen.


Mutsog Marro
KY


The term Mind is used in a myriad of ways, what would constitute the "mind" in how you're using it? I'd say you have to be careful with labels, because the label implies a "thing" (or a collection of things) which automatically creates 'that which is not-that-thing'. Hence the duality of the ego-centric-mind and the non-ego-centric-mind ...both are fabrications of avidya. As conventional concepts they can be good pointers in a given situation where they're appropriate, but ultimately neither can be the essence in Dzogchen, and ultimately both require negation of inherency apart from conventionality. The essence with how Namdrol used it would be a description of the "essential point" of the teaching or the "underlying theme". Like the essential point of collecting bottlecaps is to have a collection. The essential point of Dzogchen is to know your own state. But the essence as in a term attributed to the "base" which is what you deemed as "mind" ...is not mind...or the base. It is empty. And empty is empty.
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:08 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,


Mind, as the non-ego centric mind would be the essence in Dzogchen.


Mutsog Marro
KY


The term Mind is used in a myriad of ways, what would constitute the "mind" in how you're using it?
I am using the mind as ego-centric and non-ego-centric. Well we use mostly the mind of dualisms or the mind of karma and in Dzogchen Meditaition i am aware of the nondual or non-ego-centric mind.


I'd say you have to be careful with labels, because the label implies a "thing" (or a collection of things) which automatically creates 'that which is not-that-thing'. Hence the duality of the ego-centric-mind and the non-ego-centric-mind ...both are fabrications of avidya.
Well i do labelling with words, to make possible something clear. Last mentioned non-ego-centric mind do i see as more as Rigpa (without learning).


As conventional concepts they can be good pointers in a given situation where they're appropriate, but ultimately neither can be the essence in Dzogchen, and ultimately both require negation of inherency apart from conventionality.
I also see Essence and Nature as one meaning here. So the essence of Dzogchen is prescribing its Nature or the essence is part of the Nature.

The essence with how Namdrol used it would be a description of the "essential point" of the teaching or the "underlying theme". Like the essential point of collecting bottlecaps is to have a collection. The essential point of Dzogchen is to know your own state. But the essence as in a term attributed to the "base" which is what you deemed as "mind" ...is not mind...or the base. It is empty. And empty is empty.


Well the base in Dzogchen is the Natural State where everything comes out. One can combine this Nature with Compassion.
The essence of this Nature is emptiness but it has the abillity that thoughts can spontaneously arise out of Nature, whereas Nature has not made anything or has anything to do with the development of thoughts. So here i don' t agree with you at all that out of this so called emptiness cannot arise thoughts.
Then we get that thoughts can be dualistic and then is spoken of the ego-centric-mind. The non-dualistic-egocentric mind, that is seen by me as Rigpa.
Then the essence of the Dzogchen teachings are by that reasoning for me the realising of the egoless mind.

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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby White Lotus » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:41 pm

just be, live, breathe... versus see your original nature. people have been arguing over this for centuries in different religious traditions. which is it?... just dont know.

one could be seen as the trunk of the elephant, the other as its legs... many different takes on the theme of enlightenment. perhaps in the end one does not know, nor can one know since the two perspectives... 'be' and nature are taken up by so many learned people.

there are dzogchen texts that emphasise 'be' and then someone like Namkhai Norbu could be said to be teaching seeing 'nature'.

i am not learned in this matter, but this is how i understand a dilemma... 'be' or see nature. in therevada and zen there is an emphasis on seeing nature/dhamma. however in hinduism and some dzogchen teachings there is an emphasis on just be.

so its difficult and in the end i suppose one just isnt certain about this. can one be certain about anything in this life. can we ever know the ultimates. im not sure. do we know... im not certain. we dont know... im not certain. dont know.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby wisdom » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:12 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0040FF]Well the base in Dzogchen is the Natural State where everything comes out. One can combine this Nature with Compassion.


My current understanding is that compassion is part of the nature of our natural state. That it naturally arises with the perception of that state and that one need not combine the state with compassion, nor contrive any compassion after having achieved that state, and that this is where absolute bodhicitta comes from. Is that view wrong?
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby Paul » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:29 pm

wisdom wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0040FF]Well the base in Dzogchen is the Natural State where everything comes out. One can combine this Nature with Compassion.


My current understanding is that compassion is part of the nature of our natural state. That it naturally arises with the perception of that state and that one need not combine the state with compassion, nor contrive any compassion after having achieved that state, and that this is where absolute bodhicitta comes from. Is that view wrong?


It is my understanding that initially the practice is the recognition of essence rigpa, but over time the qualities of rigpa naturally emerges (thugje) which are more akin to the emotions of devotion and compassion but remain inseparable from rigpa's nature.

On a related note, Tsoknyi Rinpoche's stated that for some people compassion and devotion are needed for the natural emergence of insight through practice, but for others insight will come first and then devotion and compassion will emerge naturally. The first group are usually Tibetans (or others from a dharma-based culture), whereas the latter is usually the case for Westerners.
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"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby muni » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:29 am

Stream of concepts is chasing mirages.
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Re: The essence of Dzogchen

Postby White Lotus » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:09 pm

not attached to freedom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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